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Hero Call This River Bet?


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Full Tilt Poker Game #14677682460: Table Singer (deep) - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:07:56 ET - 2009/09/13Seat 1: Hlavastatu ($11.68)Seat 2: boraxe ($20.39)Seat 3: Kopi44 ($22.08)Seat 4: bysnake ($20.40)Seat 5: XavierU2011 ($9.80)Seat 6: xKorviNx ($10.15)Seat 7: ThriceGuy ($10.78)Seat 8: baronvonadam ($20.40)Seat 9: Homero777 ($42.83)XavierU2011 posts the small blind of $0.05xKorviNx posts the big blind of $0.10The button is in seat #4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to ThriceGuy [4s As]ThriceGuy calls $0.10baronvonadam foldsHomero777 foldsHlavastatu has 15 seconds left to actHlavastatu raises to $0.40boraxe foldsKopi44 foldsbysnake foldsXavierU2011 foldsxKorviNx foldsThriceGuy calls $0.30*** FLOP *** [Ts 8s 4d]ThriceGuy bets $0.50Hlavastatu calls $0.50*** TURN *** [Ts 8s 4d] [9h]ThriceGuy bets $1.20Hlavastatu calls $1.20*** RIVER *** [Ts 8s 4d 9h] [5h]ThriceGuy checksHlavastatu bets $3.20No history with villain here. Having flopped a pair + nut flush draw, I lead the flop and turn with a bet and villain calls both streets. The river is a blank so I check. Villain bets 3/4 pot. What does this bet represent?The river card basically changed nothing but at this point we can only beat a bluff. IMO villains line looks like a bluff but I'd like to read any feedback regarding this hand as well as feedback on my line. Thanks.

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Pretty easy fold here imo. I also raise pre (well, folding, but if I'm VPIPing then I'm raising) and probably don't donk. But I'm no good at FR
I fold this pre at FR
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I agree that folding As4s preflop utg is standard since limping in that spot is probably -EV in the long run, which leads me to ask another question; what kind of hands is it ever profitable to limp utg with, if any? Or should we only be raising or folding here? Lastly, if the overall table has been passive over the last few rotations, can that be enough reason to try and see a cheap flop with any Ax suited in EP? Obviously there are no absolutes, I just felt this table was passive enough for me to limp utg with the As4s, but I digress. These questions are for discussion sake.As for the hand itself, lets place ourselves in villains seat. With the information we have by the river from our As4s p.o.v., what hands can we, now the villian, realistically be repping? In my opinion, by even getting to this river, we never have monster hands like flopped sets or turned straights, since we didn't raise the flop bet or the turn bet, so it's safe to eliminate those hand ranges. We can also eliminate any vulnerable hands like overpairs and 2 pair type hands, as it'd be terrible to only call both streets on a semi-drawy board when we should be getting value from these types of hands asap. 2 pair is unlikely anyways given the preflop raise and this board. However I can possibly understand only calling both streets with 10x hands like J10-A10 for pot control, but just like any hands with value we all know we're most likely raising a bet into us.I'd also like to look at hands that have showdown value in a built pot. After being checked to in position, what are we betting on this board? I'd argue that we're always checking the mid one pair hands such as any 9 or 8 (which would be weird to have at this point in the first place). We may even be checking the 10J - 10K type hands but when we bet for value it's not going to be for $3+ since we're trying to get a call.So taking all of this into consideration in the 30 seconds that I had lol... I believed villain had air and called. Villain had KJo for the missed overs and a missed turn gutshot draw. Well that hand makes sense... The bet screamed "I can only win by betting."I just wanted to share this hand with the general strat forum (my first post in months) because if you logically look at villains line and all all of the information we have from villain just calling each street in position, combined with the river bet, it looked like a bluff.This is why I asked in the OP what is the villain here representing? I completely understand why the consensus here, as played, is to fold. The knee jerk reaction is to fold, and I almost did! This was not a standard hand by any means.I'm probably just a calling station limping utg with junk...It's funny to me that I got max value with bottom pair and a missed flush draw... Moral of the story, check raise the flop and we never have to worry about all of this at a $0.05 - $0.10 of all places. :club:

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#1 why did you limp UTG! Horrible play unless you have AA! Raise that pre or fold and im leaning toward fold preflop, if we were in better position like late middle or late then i like the limp. As played:you barreled twice and got called then you shut down and he put in a value sized bet in .5-.10 we have crap hand and overplayed it post flop we can never call that river. If we had raised pre we could have repped more but we are pretty transparent as a draw with this line so dump instantly. In a full ring deep game im never limping UTG unless i have AA and think at least one if not 2 people would raise behind unless i have just seen a crap load of passive play#2 as for river bet we beat NOTHING represented on this board why do you even think of calling? if it went check flop check turn we may have been able to induce a bluff and call with a bluff catcher but we OVER repped our hand so dump it like it is hot!#3 On flop bet huge, we have a pair and the nut flush draw we want war on that flop but we could take it down with strong betting#4 as for limping utg: if you wanna mix you play a little bit, after you have established a bit of a tight image and seen a good amount of playing from the table and think you have decent reads on everyone ( or at least most) these are some decent hands to mix in UTG: J9 s, 910 s, AX suited, and maybe a suited broadway or two but only do this a small amount of the time and raise it up a normal preflop open you aren't playing these hands totally to win with them, but to let people see you do this a bit to hide your monsters a bit. So when you have AA and open normal you will get action. Oh and if you do have a monster draw play those hands hard because they are well hidden when they do hit. Limping utg IMO is almost always negative EV play no matter what hand you have in a 9 max and happens far too much in lose weak games#5. our line never eliminated hands from his range at all so his range is so big we really have no idea where we could be. Don't use the good results of this play to justify a total hero call he was an idiot for flatting your flop bet, he didn't raise when he picked up a draw ( and if he is that much a station you could have shoved and maybe gotten called) and finally check calling a decent river bet with no reads on villains river play with bottom pair is just not a good line to take too often

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i don't agree with this statement
why? if you limp big you may get in trouble, if you limp light you get stuck in too many bad spots multiway. If you give everyone amazing odds to see the flop you can run into rag two pairs it is much easier and in my mind better play to raise. We have the least amount of information at the table when we are first to act and even monster pocket pairs don't play particularly well against like 4-5 villains and if we make a habit of limping UTG that is what is going to happenLike i said in my earlier post limp strong UTG if you think someone will raise behind you that isn't a bad play but at microstakes full ring games EVERYONE will limp pretty much ATC and just wanna see the flop and we fail to eliminate hands from our villains ranges, doesn't mean we can't win some chips, but we put ourselves in nonfavorable position in a game where they don't give a ton of attention to the game we can play our lines much more basic and find great success
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#2 as for river bet we beat NOTHING represented on this board why do you even think of calling? if it went check flop check turn we may have been able to induce a bluff and call with a bluff catcher but we OVER repped our hand so dump it like it is hot!#5. our line never eliminated hands from his range at all so his range is so big we really have no idea where we could be. Don't use the good results of this play to justify a total hero call he was an idiot for flatting your flop bet, he didn't raise when he picked up a draw ( and if he is that much a station you could have shoved and maybe gotten called) and finally check calling a decent river bet with no reads on villains river play with bottom pair is just not a good line to take too often
I disagree with the bolded portions. To me, villians river bet looked exactly like a missed hand and it was the type of bet that wanted a fold. Again, I want to reiterate that this read was based on villians flop and turn action. Ask yourself this; If you're the villian here are you really ever going to bet mid pair hands, like 8x or 9x, when checked to? If you're answer is yes, then that's an amazing value bet. Even if you're answer is yes, are you betting 3/4 of the pot? I doubt it. This kind of river bet is polarized to AIR or I suppose the nuts, although I feel that villain never has QJ here.Our bet/villains call line on each the flop and the turn eliminates a huge range of hands. I do admit we will run into some 10x type of hands here, but if you're the villian you're probably raising any strong hands on the flop or the turn, and if you do have a 10x type hand by this river, there's no reason to bet so much on this board. We now know that villain had KJo here, and this hand makes the most sense with villains call/call/bet river line. I'll be the first to admit that this is a very thin call and we can only beat a very narrow combination of hands, but I explained why we can eliminate a lot of the hands that beat us. The main purpose of my original post was to focus the discussion on villains line and what villain could ever be repping by the big bet on the river. We can all agree that villain played the KJ hand terribly and we can all agree that we should be folding the As4s hand 9 of 10 times utg and as played, check raising the flop is a stronger line to take in the end.
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1. i just don't think we see villain showing up with KJ off that often, in hindsight you were right, the question is with what you said on original post you had no reads on villain this is a total hero call with a bluff catcher which in this case you did catch and if you had seen him float light and bet rivers when he missed this isn't a horrible play but without reads this is a fold. I don't know if you are convincing yourself of the call because you are right in hindsight or if you really had that good of a read but ask yourself this, out of 100 times how many times does villain show up with a pure bluff here? 10%,... 20% ? Yes a big river bet could be a bluff or he could be going to value town on you. If your original post was right and you didn't have good reads on his lines we have no idea which one it is and we would like for someone else to pay to see if we are right or not by folding and keep taking good notes. I mean we can't count on villain playing such a weird, and frankly horrible line every time. If this had gone more standard we bet turn, he raises and we push and we are happy with that. He must have decided on the flop he was going to float, float, bet big and those are just the weird moves some people do in holdem it was a double delayed cbet basically.2. as for villains range, it depends on how much he has raised into weakness from middle position, he could have broadways, high suited connectors or Single broadway gapped suited, Pocket pairs, AX suited, Stronger AX (K-10) offs would be a decent range to put him on. Any reads on how often he opened pots or bet into weakness would help on that side of the question

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There's nothing wrong with limping small-med PP UTG if the table is loose-passive.
only on a LP table we need like 2 stations to our right we would hate to just passively set mine we are going to have to throw a ton of hands away to preflop raises and a decent amount of flops. I love to be a slightly small ball semi lag but i just don't like getting to out of line UTG or UTG +1 in 9 max, 6 max is a little different but we need to get past to many people we almost never get any walks and we are giving late middle position 2.5:1 and position postflop to just pick on us by limping, when we open up early limps people now have the ability to do position plays and barreling at us. Lets not forget it is .5-.10 we should be staying mostly TAG unless we have position and reads to exploit villains
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#1 why did you limp UTG! Horrible play unless you have AA!
I argue limping exactly AA UTG is FPS against unobservant opponents and transparent against observant ones.
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Two very different issues being discussed in this hand.- Preflop decision- River decision.Here are my thoughts on the first....Reasons for limping:- We have a hand that plays well in multi-way pots. Limping encourages other limpers. And we would love to have the whole table playing this pot with me. And since our opponents are microstake crazies who typically make loose calls and overplay their hands, we could potentially win a large pot given the proper board. - It's cheap. It's less than 1% of my buyin. If I have to limp-fold, that doesn't hurt us too bad at all.= This combination of reasons is the classical Low Risk / High Reward situation that we love.Note: Despite this logic, we do still have to be observant and realistic. If we are at a table that is being raised preflop every hand, then our limp is not going to accomplish what we want. So putting chips in will just be a waste.Reasons Against Raising:- It kills the chances of playing the hand multi-way.- And anyone who calls us likely has our hand dominated.= So raising simply weeds out the hands we beat and pits us against the hands that beat us.Not the combination we are looking for.Reasons for Folding:- Ace Rags can be very tricky to play postflop. If hit top pair and play it poorly, we could lose a lot of chips. So we have to proceed carefully. But if we are skilled in our postflop play, and recognize that we will only be playing a big postflop pot with more than one pair, then we should be able to play it profitably against this group of opponents.Conclusion: Folding here out of position is probably very standard. But limping is perfectly fine on many tables as long as we play it properly after the flop.If we have the confidence to outplay our opponents, then we can profitably test the waters by limping in with hands like this.I do it all the time.Just be prepared to dump it unless we hit hard.

if you limp big you may get in trouble, if you limp light you get stuck in too many bad spots multiway
We will not play a big pot in a bad spot.
If you give everyone amazing odds to see the flop you can run into rag two pairs
And this is why we won't play a big pot unless we can beat 2-pair.
it is much easier and in my mind better play to raise
Simpler and easier, sure.But this doesn't make it more profitable.--CM
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