I_fold08 1 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 here's the situation, I have been playing pretty tight and picking my spots pretty well. The guy who 3bets me is raising every hand and donating chips to everyone at the table, but i haven't seen the sb play a hand yet. so is shoving standard here after the 3bet and flat call?PokerStars Game #32663417931: Tournament #193236749, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XX (3000/6000) - 2009/09/10 1:40:42 ETTable '193236749 69' 9-max Seat #4 is the buttonSeat 1: Drizzy YM (139788 in chips)Seat 2: DANTONQ42 (232861 in chips)Seat 3: ajt1946 (182104 in chips)Seat 4: general_jim3 (762404 in chips)Seat 6: mahowny777 (335290 in chips)Seat 7: squizzy58 (247046 in chips)Seat 8: galoooooPb (114594 in chips)Seat 9: se7enth_bok (201204 in chips)Drizzy YM: posts the ante 600DANTONQ42: posts the ante 600ajt1946: posts the ante 600general_jim3: posts the ante 600mahowny777: posts the ante 600squizzy58: posts the ante 600galoooooPb: posts the ante 600se7enth_bok: posts the ante 600mahowny777: posts small blind 3000squizzy58: posts big blind 6000*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to se7enth_bok [As Qd]galoooooPb: foldsse7enth_bok: raises 9000 to 15000Drizzy YM: foldsDANTONQ42: foldsajt1946: foldszlattee_ is connectedgeneral_jim3: foldsmahowny777: raises 27000 to 42000squizzy58: calls 36000se7enth_bok: ??? Link to post Share on other sites
qnshustler 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 here's the situation, I have been playing pretty tight and picking my spots pretty well. The guy who 3bets me is raising every hand and donating chips to everyone at the table, but i haven't seen the sb play a hand yet. so is shoving standard here after the 3bet and flat call?Typo? Isn't the 3bettor in the sb? Assuming you meant you haven't seen BB play a hand yet..This is pretty close IMO...the fact that he's been raising every hand and donating make it very much a shove spot (Although, was he only opening or 3-betting often as well?), but the flat from the BB is usually cause for concern. We have a good enough stack to fold this and wait for a better spot, I guess it partly depends how deep we are, itm yet? close to it? How long had you been at the table with BB where he hasn't played a hand yet? He has us covered, both do actually...and theres really no flatting in position with the stack size, I think I can fold here but its very close, and if not for BB's flat I would probably shove all day. Link to post Share on other sites
SlapStick 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I call with position. BB could be getting tricky, if hes passive and just calling with an ok hand, smallish PP or Ace suited, you can let SB's agression get rid of him and decide from there. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Calling is good here...IMO, you're never getting a shove called by a worse hand, so essentially you're turning your hand into a bluff if you do that. We have no idea what SB has here and so we want to proceed, but proceed cautiously, having position on both players. Link to post Share on other sites
CoolHandPuke 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Is folding here terrible? I don't like flatting, needing to improve on the flop and even then we may not be ahead. I think its a shove or fold, and shoving seems a little spewy so I'm inclined to fold since we have plenty of chips. Has Mahowny777 been 3betting people alot or just opening alot? The flat by Squizzy58 is either really strong or nothing and given we haven't seen him play a hand I'm willing to assume strength until I have some info. I guess it all comes down to our chip count and I just don't think this is a good spot to be risking a good % of our chips, especially by flatting. Link to post Share on other sites
I_fold08 1 Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 Typo? Isn't the 3bettor in the sb? Assuming you meant you haven't seen BB play a hand yet..This is pretty close IMO...the fact that he's been raising every hand and donating make it very much a shove spot (Although, was he only opening or 3-betting often as well?), but the flat from the BB is usually cause for concern. We have a good enough stack to fold this and wait for a better spot, I guess it partly depends how deep we are, itm yet? close to it? How long had you been at the table with BB where he hasn't played a hand yet? He has us covered, both do actually...and theres really no flatting in position with the stack size, I think I can fold here but its very close, and if not for BB's flat I would probably shove all day.you're right, i hadnt see the bb play a hand, my mistake Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Pretty kinda gross/close spot. I think a call is a decent option. I don't mind folding. I also don't hate jamming although you're probably slightly too deep and too much of a dog against calling ranges to do that.Any kind of read on the BB would be so useful here. A random is probably fairly strong here but some people are just spectacularly retarded and throwing dead money into the pot which make jamming to take advantage of that kinda sexy.Readless I think both call and fold are equally fine. Sticky spot on flops even if you do it, I think you have to go with your hand on Qxx and Axxoh, you say the SB is a monkey, yea you definitely have to go with it on any flop you hit. I may go in after some other flops too, depending on what the BB does. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 It's a call/fold option. As some have said, shoving is only getting called down by AK/AA/KK/QQ, possibly JJ/TT.You need to see a flop and it's 26K more to call into a pot that is already 106K. If you miss the flop, well, be careful? Chances are good you're up against a mid-pp and/or AK or suited Broadway cards... Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 It's a call/fold option. As some have said, shoving is only getting called down by AK/AA/KK/QQ, possibly JJ/TT. Well you're definitely getting called by this range and maybe slightly wider. What you may not understand is taht it doesnt matter we're say 33% against that range. If we are 33% we only need to get folds preflop probably around 25% of the time to make this a profitable play - given the dead money in the pot.If the SB is a 3 betting monkey he's1) probably calling wider2) folding a lot of his range to a shove tooMaking this close to a shove.In the $3R I'd say there's a decent chance the BB is just being silly with something like 44 or A7s and I might just say **** it and stick it in to try to increase my stack by about 50% without showdown. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Well you're definitely getting called by this range and maybe slightly wider. What you may not understand is taht it doesnt matter we're say 33% against that range. If we are 33% we only need to get folds preflop probably around 25% of the time to make this a profitable play - given the dead money in the pot.If the SB is a 3 betting monkey he's1) probably calling wider2) folding a lot of his range to a shove tooMaking this close to a shove.In the $3R I'd say there's a decent chance the BB is just being silly with something like 44 or A7s and I might just say **** it and stick it in to try to increase my stack by about 50% without showdown.Hehe...that's very possible. My read stems from a paranoia born of bad timing, wherein I shove AQ into AK and get no help or AK into Ax and they hit their kicker or I'm completely dominated (ie: 99<KK), but I try not to let those things hamper my play. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I fold here, I don't like that cold call. Shipping it ai is the only other play here. I think flat calling is weak.fold>>>>shove>>>>call imo Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 33 BBs is absolutely the bottom end of my stack size I'm willing to take a 3 bet pot in position with. I'm not too happy doing it. Give me 40 and I think calling here is prob completely fine. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Omg if Fade is saying fold then this is like a fist-pump turbo muck and immediately pat yourself on the back for saving all your chips! Link to post Share on other sites
three eight offsuit 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 weird spot if bb had done anything odd already i'm definitely shoving cos stupid people generally flat like A10s KQs 77 esp in $3r there so lots of dead money If bb is compotent might just fold idk pretty yuk or call with sb prob c-betting a lot of flops and we can ship on him if bb folds Link to post Share on other sites
Shark527 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I fold here, I don't like that cold call. Shipping it ai is the only other play here. I think flat calling is weak.fold>>>>shove>>>>call imoI entirely agree. This is a very significant chunk of our stack going to the flop. Whats going to happen when we miss the flop and another player bets? We miss more often than we hit. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Omg if Fade is saying fold then this is like a fist-pump turbo muck and immediately pat yourself on the back for saving all your chips! u SwolyswoND! Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 33 BBs is absolutely the bottom end of my stack size I'm willing to take a 3 bet pot in position with. I'm not too happy doing it. Give me 40 and I think calling here is prob completely fine.Against multiple opponents? That's def -EV with AQ, I'm sure of it. I know you're a sicko dude but I personally wouldn't make that play and most around here know how LAGtarded I am. Link to post Share on other sites
three eight offsuit 0 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 ^^ I think flatting is fine if we get in in against cbets from Sb (presuming bb folds to cbet) as we all agree we're ahead of his range and this spot would be way easier w/o bb flatIf bb gets it in OTF we have to go with it in on Qxx and Axx i think Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Against multiple opponents? That's def -EV with AQ, I'm sure of it. I know you're a sicko dude but I personally wouldn't make that play and most around here know how LAGtarded I am.I'll look into this later after my session. I'll be happy if it turns out to be -EV. I think it'll be close and the other options might be better anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I immediately thought fold for AQ here... but considering the 3bettor is spewing chips to the entire table, squizzy could be calling w/ a lot of broadway, mid-pair hands that can't stand the heat of an all-in from the original raiser. It's close... but it's a large portion of your stack to call. Since you miss most flops and will probably be bet into on the flop, I think it's either shove/fold pre-flop. I say I'd shove, but I know the in-the-moment-nit in me would probably fold. Link to post Share on other sites
RISEorFall 0 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 our M's 14.5, on top of this your stacks about average at the table. if the BB had QQ+ or AK he'd probably reraise to isolate and try and get it in with the SB. he shouldnt want to take a flop 3 handed. just because he hasnt played a hand in a while doesnt mean too much. maybe he's bored and wants to see a flop with JT. how many guys wait around to get aces or kings, then just flat call with them? i'd shove, expect to get called by a medium pair and maybe AJ with a bunch of dead money in the pot.this might change depending on how far in the tournament we are, but this looks like a really good spot to pick up a ton of chips, i say we take it. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Wow, I'm surprised this is still being discussed. If people want to go all in with AQ here pf so be it but flatting is not good imo. F being passive in this spot. If you are going to go with it, shove it.I still fold. I'm all about picking up chips in dead spots but I think you're gonna get called here somewhere and I don't like taking AQ to showdown in this type of a spot @ a full table. You can find better spots imo Link to post Share on other sites
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