Flop A Set In 3-way Raised Pot

[mb2k 0]

Faced this nice problem last night. I was running a small loss at the time after trying to bluff idiots, but anyway...0.05/0.10 cash game (5 handed)---------------------- I Hold 44 on the button- Middle position raises to 0.35- Late position re-raises to 0.70- I call (for the position) so does MP*FLOP* 4-T-A rainbow- MP bets 1.50- LP callswhat do you do here? fairly certain MP made a hefty cbet to represent AK or similar, but LPs call is probably genuine as he actually does have the AK. All I'm worried about is TT or donk inside stright draw (KQ, QJ, JK). But right now, I'm sure I'm ahead with a nice concealed set.If I just call - I can probably induce another round of betting/bluffing on the turn as long as there's no straight card (9,J,K,Q), then push all in to take the pot.If I raise small - I might get called by one or both players but that'll slow them down on the turn (unless they did have TT or god forbid, AA). alternatively, I might induce a push, which I will certianly have to call.If I raise big - they'll fold with anything other than a higher set, wouldn't they?What do you rekon?

[Sick Boy 0]

this is a pretty awesome dilema to have. Personally, I would probably re-raise just over 3x the bet here. There's a good chance one of these guys have an ace, and if they do, you can take them to value town and build a nice pot on each street if they decide to play it passively, or just get it all in on the flop if one of the donks happen to have flopped two pair or are ready to party with AK, AQ type hands. If they dont have a hand they can call you with, well you're prob not gonna win a very big pot anyway and you'll probably get outdrawn by some wierd straight or some sick shit like that. Three handed, flat calling here is asking for trouble imho, So, imo raise the flop and hope someone has an ace and can call you. If they all fold, oh well, move onto the next hand and eventually the dream scenerio will occur.The idea that one of these guys might have a higher set should be the furtherst thing from your mind right now.

[mb2k 0]

The idea that one of these guys might have a higher set should be the furtherst thing from your mind right now.

Yeah, it definately was!I think most people will be up for a raise here. I was tempted to flatcall just to induce another bet, or hoping another ace fell on the turn giving them trips to my boat. Bit early for the results maybe, but here it is anyway: I raised to 6 (slightly more than you suggested) and they both folded. Can only assume MP made a bluff cbet and LP made a donk call and was looking for an excuse to get out. I guess they weren't in the mood to party shame. Perhaps if I'd raised 2.5 or 3 times the bet, I might've got more value? Then again, I would be kicking myself if a straight came. I remember reading the NLHE chapter in Super/System where Brunson shows that whenever there's a single ace on the flop, the next card can make someone a straight.

[qnshustler 0]

Really don't post results so soon. Try to give a bit more details too, i.e. stack sizes, maybe something about how they play, etc. Besides that, Sick Boy is right you should probably raise right there, I'd go with about 2-3 times the bet. If no one has an ace then you'll probably only be getting more money in the pot if a card comes that beats you, while if someone does have it you want to start building the pot right now when it's toughest for them to get away.

[mb2k 0]

Really don't post results so soon. Try to give a bit more details too, i.e. stack sizes, maybe something about how they play, etc.

I really only get to post here from work, so don't have access to my hand history or a converter - hence the lack of detail. Apologies though. Expect a few other people are in this situation?Anyway yeah I think it's one of those situations where I have to raise, but I want at least one of them to call me with the ace. Didn't happen this time...

[SwolyswoND 1]

Personally, I would probably re-raise just over 3x the bet here.

He can't, he can only raise, IMOSomeone who has been posting and playing as long as you should know this difference by now.

[CoolHandPuke 0]

He can't, he can only raise, IMOSomeone who has been posting and playing as long as you should know this difference by now.

You knew what he meant, don't be a dick.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

We are not "calling for position" - we are set mining in this hand. When deciding to make the preflop call we need to assess how much we are likely to win after the Flop if we hit. We need to put .70 into a pot preflop, even assuming that MP will come along, we are only getting an immediate 2:1 on the call. MP and LP do some of our post flop work for us by putting $3.00 into the pot - another 4x our original preflop call. No need to get too rash here and raise to $6. This is a great point for a slightly larger than Minraise to $4 or so.

[SwolyswoND 1]

You knew what he meant, don't be a dick.

Sorry, it's not being a dick. It's a pet peeve of mine (and several other people on this forum) and a mistake made by people who are beginners with the game. Plus he does it in every thread he posts in.And, if I might add, perhaps you should not be quick to jump on people when you are new to the forum.

[Sick Boy 0]

He can't, he can only raise, IMOSomeone who has been posting and playing as long as you should know this difference by now.

You knew what he meant, don't be a dick.

This.

Sorry, it's not being a dick. It's a pet peeve of mine (and several other people on this forum) and a mistake made by people who are beginners with the game. Plus he does it in every thread he posts in.And, if I might add, perhaps you should not be quick to jump on people when you are new to the forum.

Perhaps you shouldn't be so condescending.

[droberts 3]

personally i would call the mod and tell him that someone invisible is sitting at the table and raising.....maybe that is how he is able to "reraise" a bet.the invisible guy just keeps raising before it gets to Hero.

[SwolyswoND 1]

This.Perhaps you shouldn't be so condescending.

If it was your first time doing it, I'd probably overlook it as a mistake. But you do it every time you tell someone to raise, so it's beyond a mistake and it's just you either negligently or intentionally being wrong.Condescending or not, I don't really care. It brings down the level of respect for a poker forum when established posters can't even get the terms right.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Faced this nice problem last night. I was running a small loss at the time after trying to bluff idiots, but anyway...0.05/0.10 cash game (5 handed)---------------------- I Hold 44 on the button- Middle position raises to 0.35- Late position re-raises to 0.70- I call (for the position) so does MP*FLOP* 4-T-A rainbow- MP bets 1.50- LP callswhat do you do here? fairly certain MP made a hefty cbet to represent AK or similar, but LPs call is probably genuine as he actually does have the AK. All I'm worried about is TT or donk inside stright draw (KQ, QJ, JK). But right now, I'm sure I'm ahead with a nice concealed set.If I just call - I can probably induce another round of betting/bluffing on the turn as long as there's no straight card (9,J,K,Q), then push all in to take the pot.If I raise small - I might get called by one or both players but that'll slow them down on the turn (unless they did have TT or god forbid, AA). alternatively, I might induce a push, which I will certianly have to call.If I raise big - they'll fold with anything other than a higher set, wouldn't they?What do you rekon?

Stacks? WE DON'T PUSH THE TURN TO TAKE THE POT, WE PUSH THE TURN TO GET VALUE. We flopped a set. We want to be called, not folded to. Just sayin. So we think about the villain's tendencies and act accordingly.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

This.Perhaps you shouldn't be so condescending.

Bravo.I'm not terribly "new" to the Forum and felt much as you did regarding the nature of SwolyswoND's "Pet Peeve"I very nearly posted a similar response.Let's at least get some content in our responses, not just criticism....this post is a complete hypocrisy.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

Stacks? WE DON'T PUSH THE TURN TO TAKE THE POT, WE PUSH THE TURN TO GET VALUE. We flopped a set. We want to be called, not folded to. Just sayin. So we think about the villain's tendencies and act accordingly.

Agreed. We called preflop intending to get value for our call.

[mb2k 0]

My immediate thought after they both folded was indeed that I should've made a smaller raise to bring the ace along with me. I think I'm putting MP on AJ and LP on jacks or queens here, although at the time of playing the hand all I was thinking was 'someone has an ace'. I agree that we raise for value, and I was certainly hoping to be called by one guy at least, but I guess I raised too hard.

[SlapStick 0]

Raise. Need money in the pot and both players should have a peice of this. And at this level especially.

[KingJames 11]

Then again, I would be kicking myself if a straight came. I remember reading the NLHE chapter in Super/System where Brunson shows that whenever there's a single ace on the flop, the next card can make someone a straight.

Board reads A94; turn is a 678TJQK and no straight is possible... Did I misread the statement?With regards to the hand, you need to raise for value, but not so much to blow people out of the pot. With 2.10 in the pot and a bet and call of 1.50, the pot is 5.10, you should riase to 4.50-5.00 and vary that based on reads, stats etc...I lean toward 4.50 and 3x the bet is zzzzzz.I wouldn't every worry about a drooler calling you with a gut-shot here as there is an ace on the board... "they can't make the top pair!!!!"The key to getting value in spots like this is knowing your villains. Will the first villain fire a second barrell into 2 opponents, will he go into c/c mode with tptk, will 2nd villain flat the c-bet and try to steal the pot on the turn... what does he do when you flat behind... etc etc... I realize that most of the times we're playing with unknowns... so we go back to the standard... raise, enough to get value, but don't mash the pot/all-in buttons and fold out everything except for AA/TT...With regard to the "re-raise" debate... It's whatever, technically ND is right, but he's also from the midwest, so that's a push...

[Temporary Nuts 1]

If it was your first time doing it, I'd probably overlook it as a mistake. But you do it every time you tell someone to raise, so it's beyond a mistake and it's just you either negligently or intentionally being wrong.Condescending or not, I don't really care. It brings down the level of respect for a poker forum when established posters can't even get the terms right.

Ok, before this turns into a sh1tfest I'm gonna step in (and make sure it is one duh )No need to get our panties in a bunch gentlemen.Swoly is correct, actually. Sick Boy, I've corrected you on the terminology as well without even noticing this. You are doing it repeatedly.Let me put it this way, would you take your car to a mechanic who said "I'm going to fix your iron pumpy thingy"? I don't care if you know he's talking about a piston or not, I'm not trusting this guy no matter how good or established he is. The bottom line is no one will take your words for any value if you can't speak the language of the job. Especially in poker. Poker is a game where noticing subtle details will increase your profitability. Get used to correcting those details.As far as the hand goes, wake up on the turn. Don't worry about those crazy gutterballs hitting the turn. You'll boat up more often than that happens.Getting a single stack in is important, but in this situation it's going to make it a lot easier to get one of those stacks in by letting the pot bloat before you make your raise.

[Sick Boy 0]

Ok, before this turns into a sh1tfest I'm gonna step in (and make sure it is one duh )No need to get our panties in a bunch gentlemen.Swoly is correct, actually. Sick Boy, I've corrected you on the terminology as well without even noticing this. You are doing it repeatedly.Let me put it this way, would you take your car to a mechanic who said "I'm going to fix your iron pumpy thingy"? I don't care if you know he's talking about a piston or not, I'm not trusting this guy no matter how good or established he is. The bottom line is no one will take your words for any value if you can't speak the language of the job. Especially in poker. Poker is a game where noticing subtle details will increase your profitability. Get used to correcting those details.

w/e

[droberts 3]

i think he finally learned how to "raise"he raised your quote above his statement..well done.

[mb2k 0]

Board reads A94; turn is a 678TJQK and no straight is possible... Did I misread the statement?

KingJames, the wheel straight is possible here with 23, when a 5 comes. Doyle's statement always holds true because ace is high and low, that's why it works. If I can put my 2c in about this 're-raise' debate. I knew exactly what he meant so no big deal. But then again, I get vexed when people get you're/your and to/too wrong so meh..