Could You Lay These Down?

[mb2k 0]

Hi guys,Just joined up, mainly to join in discusisons and get some advice on hand histories. I am an average player, who can grind out profit on nickel/dime tables but always loses whenever I try to move up stakes. I have a couple of hands I'd like you to look at, and my question is, could you lay these down? I will get a converter soon but for now, I'm just writing them from memory.1st hand--------Game: 0.12/0.25 5-handed cash game at redbet (mainly european site on the bossmedia netwrok)- I hold AA on the button and make a small raise to 0.75 (table was tight and I wanted to keep players in the hand)- I get one caller, the BB- Flop comes A, Q, T. There is no flush draw.- He checks, I bet $1- He raises to $3.50- At this point I put him on TT, or QT for 2-pair. QQ is out because I think he would've re-raised preflop.- I go all in and he calls.- He shows JK for the straight.Is this just a hand I have to pay off, or did I donk it?2nd hand---------Same game stakes as above, different table.- I hold AQ on the button.- Late position makes a weak raise of 0.75, so I re-raise to 1.50.- Middle position player calls, original raisor folds, - Flop comes A, A, 6.- I bet 3/4 pot.- He raises, I go all in, he calls and shows AK ofr the win with the kickerThis hand, I can see why I maybe should've folded; there's not much I'm beating after the flop given that he called my re-rasise preflop. I could only really beat AJ or AX suited. 66 or AK would beat me. But could you lay it down?!

[Sick Boy 0]

Hi guys,Just joined up, mainly to join in discusisons and get some advice on hand histories. I am an average player, who can grind out profit on nickel/dime tables but always loses whenever I try to move up stakes. I have a couple of hands I'd like you to look at, and my question is, could you lay these down? I will get a converter soon but for now, I'm just writing them from memory.1st hand--------Game: 0.12/0.25 5-handed cash game at redbet (mainly european site on the bossmedia netwrok)- I hold AA on the button and make a small raise to 0.75 (table was tight and I wanted to keep players in the hand)- I get one caller, the BB- Flop comes A, Q, T. There is no flush draw.- He checks, I bet $1- He raises to $3.50- At this point I put him on TT, or QT for 2-pair. QQ is out because I think he would've re-raised preflop.- I go all in and he calls.- He shows JK for the straight.Is this just a hand I have to pay off, or did I donk it?2nd hand---------Same game stakes as above, different table.- I hold AQ on the button.- Late position makes a weak raise of 0.75, so I re-raise to 1.50.- Middle position player calls, original raisor folds, - Flop comes A, A, 6.- I bet 3/4 pot.- He raises, I go all in, he calls and shows AK ofr the win with the kickerThis hand, I can see why I maybe should've folded; there's not much I'm beating after the flop given that he called my re-rasise preflop. I could only really beat AJ or AX suited. 66 or AK would beat me. But could you lay it down?!

First of all, dont post results. When you post a strat question here end the question at the point where you had to make a decesion. We will all then tell you what we would have done if we were faced with said decesion, a discussion and/or debate will ensue and eventually, after everyone either agrees or disagrees etc. you will reveal the results. If you tell us the outcome of the hand, alot of people will not be able to give their true opinion, because their answers will be results orientated.Having said that, at 0.12/0.25, I dont think you can lay these kind of hands down unless you are playing against a complete rock who plays one hand an hour, and even then you really shouldnt be folding in either of these situations. If you're beat here, you're beat, and you just need to forget about it and move onto the next hand. These things happen, coolers. It is a part of poker, but the chances of you being beat in those sitations are very small.So basically, no, i could not have laid those hands down.

[Sick Boy 0]

And also, welcome to FCP

[mb2k 0]

Ok thanks for the comments, I convinced myself that I should've seen these coming but good to know they're just payoff hands. Can I ask why the size of the stakes makes any difference?Also, regarding your reprimand(!), I'll take it on board of course. But saying that, I see that other people post their entire HH here right down to the result, so I figured it was the norm. Noted though.

[Sick Boy 0]

Ok thanks for the comments, I convinced myself that I should've seen these coming but good to know they're just payoff hands. Can I ask why the size of the stakes makes any difference?Also, regarding your reprimand(!), I'll take it on board of course. But saying that, I see that other people post their entire HH here right down to the result, so I figured it was the norm. Noted though.

The size of the stakes makes a difference because generally, the higher the stakes are the more seriously people are gonna take each hand, so players will be putting alot more thought into what they're actually doing. Whereas at lower stakes, most of the time players are just trying to have fun and arent taking the game to seriously, so their range of hands for getting all their chips in is generally gonna be MUCH wider than those at higher stakes. As a result, laying down the 2nd or 3rd nuts is just...well...silly. Regarding my "reprimand", i wasnt really reprimanding you although I guess that is kinda how it came off. Sorry for that. Generally, if you are asking a question you should stop at the point where we have to make a decesion. Its like Dolly said, "Poker is not about winning or losing its about making the right decesion". So if people are gonna see that you lost those hands, all of a sudden it becomes an obvious fold, and vice versa. The people you saw posting results are not gonna get good feedback I garentee you.

[mb2k 0]

The size of the stakes makes a difference because generally, the higher the stakes are the more seriously people are gonna take each hand, so players will be putting alot more thought into what they're actually doing. Whereas at lower stakes, most of the time players are just trying to have fun and arent taking the game to seriously, so their range of hands for getting all their chips in is generally gonna be MUCH wider than those at higher stakes. As a result, laying down the 2nd or 3rd nuts is just...well...silly.

I hear you there, but remember I usually play 0.05/0.10 so these are fairly high stakes for me and I was certianly taking the game seriously!Also, you might be interested to read a comment I got on another forum about the first hand (I won't put the name of the poster or forum):

Your betting strategy was well off. When the blinds are .12/.25 and you raise to .75, it makes very good sense for someone to call to see the flop when they have something like KJ. The point behind a good raise pre-flop is to discourage loose players from joining the fray (the last thing you want with AA) and to establish yourself as the dominant hand. He checked, you bet $1 and then he re-raised. The only thing this can possibly mean is trouble. Unless you are absolutely certain you hold the nuts, just fold. KJ isn't a completely stupid hand to be wanting to see the flop with so the assumption that he has a straight when the flop is A-Q-T shouldn't be far from your mind. One of the first rules, your cards don't matter as much as what your opponent may have.

Perhaps this just confirms your point about not stating the results of the hands when asking for advice?!

[CoolHandPuke 0]

Welcome to FCP!Both of the hands you posted are coolers and I can't see folding either one. Converters are free at flopturnriver.com and posting hands in the specific section for the game will also get more feedback. There is a section for all games and tournaments here so take advantage of it. Oh yeah, don't post results like Sick Boy said because it affects peoples judgement.

[mb2k 0]

Welcome to FCP!Both of the hands you posted are coolers and I can't see folding either one. Converters are free at flopturnriver.com and posting hands in the specific section for the game will also get more feedback. There is a section for all games and tournaments here so take advantage of it. Oh yeah, don't post results like Sick Boy said because it affects peoples judgement.

Thanks puke, will post in appropriate section from now on . So i assume you don't give much credit to the comment I got from the other forum? I'm inclined to think I could've folded to the checkraise on the first hand given that it was a tight table.. but still damn hard to throw away top set.

[CoolHandPuke 0]

Thanks puke, will post in appropriate section from now on . So i assume you don't give much credit to the comment I got from the other forum? I'm inclined to think I could've folded to the checkraise on the first hand given that it was a tight table.. but still damn hard to throw away top set.

Like you said in your original post on the first hand your opponent has Q's, 10's or even 2 pair almost always so I can't see folding this hand. Sure, occasionaly you'll get shown the stones but you just can't fold top set here. If you go putting people on the nuts when you have the second nuts you will cost yourself a boat load of money in the long run. Hope this makes sense.

[Andynice20 0]

No chance to fold either of them, too many other hands you beat. Fold either of those and you're setting yourself up to make some horrible folds in the future. No Limit is a game where sometimes you're gonna loose your stack, so accept it or move to Limit.Of course I'm a Limit reg so take it with a grain of salt... :)Oh, and WELCOME!

[SCS 0]

3 bet bigger preflop hand 2.Other than that you played the hands fine.

[Shark527 0]

3 bet bigger preflop hand 2.

Glad somebody said this. You thought his opening raise was weak, 3x BB is standard, your 3bet was weak. Beef it up and both hands are fine.

[rrumsey 0]

"Your betting strategy was well off. When the blinds are .12/.25 and you raise to .75, it makes very good sense for someone to call to see the flop when they have something like KJ. The point behind a good raise pre-flop is to discourage loose players from joining the fray (the last thing you want with AA) and to establish yourself as the dominant hand. He checked, you bet $1 and then he re-raised. The only thing this can possibly mean is trouble. Unless you are absolutely certain you hold the nuts, just fold. KJ isn't a completely stupid hand to be wanting to see the flop with so the assumption that he has a straight when the flop is A-Q-T shouldn't be far from your mind. One of the first rules, your cards don't matter as much as what your opponent may have.''* IDK you may or may not want loose players and with a hand like AA that has staying power on almost any flop that is a little narrow view, loose players that call or raise a ton and don't like to fold can be very profitable that is a very narrow view of postflop play. *Or air/ weak hand trying to take the pot down now*That is so wrong, if you beat his range because you are almost never going to be totally sure you have the best hand unless you literally have the nuts, could he be doing this with a lower set or a pair and a draw? YES! very narrow and linear view of a hand, take what he is saying with a grain of salt he wants you to, with no notes, fold top set on a check raise. why? because he knows you lose this hand! This is total hindsight bias and garbage like this is why you don't give results until we have a good number of people saying the same thing! Oh and welcome

[mb2k 0]

Thx for the advice and welcomes.Since posting, the guy on the other forum who told me to fold both hands has pretty much been shredded on that forum too. Obviously makes me happier about my play on these hands. Absolutely could not fold top set on the first hand, although hindsight makes you think you can, but you really can't.I totally understand I can't fear the nuts all the time and i certainly wouldn't do it on the first hand, but when I got raised on the 2nd hand what could I really beat? 66, AK, or A6(probably suited) beat me, and at least 2 of those 3 hands are viable given the 'low' stakes and my min-re-raise (point noted by the way, should've raised more). A hard fold but maybe a pro would've made it?!