Aks On The Wrong Board

[CoranMoran 0]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with K, AUTG raises, MP 3-bets, CO caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP callsFlop: (17 SB) 4, 7, 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn: (10.5 BB) 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver: (14.5 BB) K(4 players)Hero checks ....===================That flop can't get much worse for us.We are down to only 4 possibly useful overcards.Even if we hit them, we could still easily be outdrawn.And we might even be drawing dead already to a Flush or Set.We don't close the action on the flop.But getting 19-1 to peel is always tempting.Do you fold this hand on the flop or the turn?When we finally catch the river, is it worth betting into 3?Please advise.--CM

[litlebullet 0]

idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre. I call the flop and I call the turn, check/ call the river.

[qnshustler 0]

I'm speaking from a place of only microstakes limit holdem experience but I think this is probably a fold on the flop. I think you have to call prf especially since its capped already. With 4 "possibly useful" over cards you're a bit better than 19-1 to hit one, but fact is you can easily be drawing dead already and you have to factor in redraws and the fact that its a 4-way pot. Sticking any more money in after that flop just seems stubborn and reckless, IMO.

[rrumsey 0]

i would lead out flop and dump turn that is a horrible death turn, there is just nnnoo way you should call that turn multiway. If it was heads up we could see if villain has like a naked A flush draw and get some equity but multiway somebody has to have something. If we had reraised preflop we could have repped the nut flush here so i would have pushed a little harder preflop with AK suited you must likely had the best hand preflop so build a big pot to take down and we are OOP we need to try and get some people out of this hand. As played shut down on turn is my vote

[rrumsey 0]

idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre. I call the flop and I call the turn, check/ call the river.

call multiway? i could like this line against 1 or 2 players but with the board paired and 3 to a flush (im ignoring 56 but i guess it shows up once in a blue moon) why do we station with a weak draw that easily could be dead and has 3 villains? Even as played we catch the river king but with the betting we have seen and us being OOP on river, do you really think out of the 3 villains, there isn't one of them has at least a flush or a set? somewhat makes sense for MP villain to be full but hard to know

[litlebullet 0]

call multiway? i could like this line against 1 or 2 players but with the board paired and 3 to a flush (im ignoring 56 but i guess it shows up once in a blue moon) why do we station with a weak draw that easily could be dead and has 3 villains? Even as played we catch the river king but with the betting we have seen and us being OOP on river, do you really think out of the 3 villains, there isn't one of them has at least a flush or a set? somewhat makes sense for MP villain to be full but hard to know

what can I say, I'm a chaser. I'm not going to let the money go that I feel I shouldn't have been part of in the first place. at the river fk it if I got my pair to fold it. since MP3 is the only one showing strength, he can still be doing this with the Ah. who cares what the other 2 players have. If they haven't woke up with something that beats our 2 pair before the river they are retarded.

[rrumsey 0]

if 4 people are in the hand in a limit game on the river when one person has shown strength i think it is safe to say one if not 2 or 3 of the non aggressors are being idiots on this hand. If we had shown more strength preflop i would like the hand better to value bet. Yes we beat any other 2 pair on river but against this board i just don't think 2 pair is good

[CoranMoran 0]

idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre.

It's not cold calling since we already have a bet invested from the big blind.Assuming everyone is coming along, it costs be another 3 bets to see flop in a 12.5 bet pot.Being out of position certainly hurts my expected value, but since I feel I can outplay most players at 2/4, I like my chances here.Having said that, I can appreciate a cautious fold from someone who is not confident at this table.

i would lead out flop

Are you suggesting that I lead bluff this horribly coordinated flop into 3 preflop raisers?Bluffing only works if there is a chance everyone will fold.My fold equity on this flop is absolutely zero.Betting out seems to have no logic behind it.

that is a horrible death turn

What is so bad about that turn card?I didn't mind it at all.It didn't complete any draws.And it's unlikely anyone started this hand with a single trey.

I'm not going to let the money go that I feel I shouldn't have been part of in the first place

This is a serious leak.fix it.

If we had shown more strength preflop i would like the hand better to value bet. Yes we beat any other 2 pair on river but against this board i just don't think 2 pair is good

I don't understand how the preflop action would affect our river action.Are you suggesting that if we had gotten the final cap in preflop, then you would lead this river?But since we only called 3 bets preflop, we should check?If we check the river, how much action are we calling?Do we overcall?Can we cold call?--cm

[antistuff 0]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with K, AUTG raises, MP 3-bets, CO caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP callsFlop: (17 SB) 4, 7, 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn: (10.5 BB) 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver: (14.5 BB) K(4 players)Hero checks ....===================That flop can't get much worse for us.We are down to only 4 possibly useful overcards.Even if we hit them, we could still easily be outdrawn.And we might even be drawing dead already to a Flush or Set.We don't close the action on the flop.But getting 19-1 to peel is always tempting.Do you fold this hand on the flop or the turn?When we finally catch the river, is it worth betting into 3?Please advise.--CM

if its not worth betting into 3 then you shouldn't have been peeling even with those odds.

idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre. I call the flop and I call the turn, check/ call the river.

i would need a read on the co such that, well, you're just not going to have that kind of read on somebody. i do not think you should ever fold AKs preflop in a lhe game, even more so in a 6 handed one.

i would lead out flop and dump turn that is a horrible death turn, there is just nnnoo way you should call that turn multiway. If it was heads up we could see if villain has like a naked A flush draw and get some equity but multiway somebody has to have something. If we had reraised preflop we could have repped the nut flush here so i would have pushed a little harder preflop with AK suited you must likely had the best hand preflop so build a big pot to take down and we are OOP we need to try and get some people out of this hand. As played shut down on turn is my vote

thats actually a pretty good turn for us if you think you can call this flop then you should call this turn also. you also cannot reraise preflop since the betting is capped at four bets on pokerstars. in a large multiway pot playing games and trying to "rep" things is generally a bad idea. yes, you do need to start thinking in terms of winning the pot over saving bets or squeezing all the value you can out of your opponents, but not like this. i think leading out and then folding the turn is the worst line that you can take here short of doing something completely bonkers like check raising the flop and then folding to a 3 bet.

call multiway? i could like this line against 1 or 2 players but with the board paired and 3 to a flush (im ignoring 56 but i guess it shows up once in a blue moon) why do we station with a weak draw that easily could be dead and has 3 villains? Even as played we catch the river king but with the betting we have seen and us being OOP on river, do you really think out of the 3 villains, there isn't one of them has at least a flush or a set? somewhat makes sense for MP villain to be full but hard to know

actually the way the betting has went down i assume nobody to have a flush or a set except for the slight chance of MP having a flush with like KQ+. and if he does have a flush he would have to be pretty dumb to play it this way given his relative position to the guy who capped preflop. its much more likely he has a pair JJ or worse and is looking for the CO to raise his bet and face everybody with two cold.

what can I say, I'm a chaser. I'm not going to let the money go that I feel I shouldn't have been part of in the first place. at the river fk it if I got my pair to fold it. since MP3 is the only one showing strength, he can still be doing this with the Ah. who cares what the other 2 players have. If they haven't woke up with something that beats our 2 pair before the river they are retarded.

i dont understand what you mean here. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------my thoughts are the flop peel is marginal but fine. if you closed the action getting those odds i don't think there would even be a question of whether to call or not. same thing with the turn although i feel you're a little safer with the not closing the action thing as utg trying to go for a c/r here would be pretty bad. on the river just lead and get calls from KQ, 99-QQ. The only time i think your bet gets raised here is if MP has kings or a flush. even so i would not fold this river for one more bet given the size of the pot. even if utg raised and everybody called i would still over call. this might be a mistake but making a bad fold here is an even worse one.

[Zach6668 513]

It's not cold calling since we already have a bet invested from the big blind.Assuming everyone is coming along, it costs be another 3 bets to see flop in a 12.5 bet pot.Being out of position certainly hurts my expected value, but since I feel I can outplay most players at 2/4, I like my chances here.Having said that, I can appreciate a cautious fold from someone who is not confident at this table.

It's still a cold call, imo.Either way, we don't have anything "invested".I probably call anyways.

[DinkDonk 1]

I like preflop, flop and turn. I lead the river and call for one more. And there is some horribly skewed logic in here.

[qnshustler 0]

I like preflop, flop and turn. I lead the river and call for one more. And there is some horribly skewed logic in here.

If this is not intended as sarcasm can you please back it up with some form of discussion because I don't get it at all.

[opie 0]

Preflop:I guess I call. That's a pretty good starting hand and really hard to lay down, even to a cap.Flop: Not a good flop, but the odds are there to call, even to 6 outs.Turn: now I can start putting players on hands. Since MP is the only one betting, I'd say he has a pocket pair, and since the other 2 are just calling, I don't think they have a pair. Would they slowplay a flush all the way to the river, or did MP flop a flush? I'm just going to figure the other 2 on overcards, hoping we hit the river, so I call.River: Yea! Our card came in. Maybe. UTG could have had as little as KT. MP could have any pair between 66 and AA. CO, who has called down, played it like AK (like you played it), or maybe AQ. Hands you would be behind - 77, AA, KK, flush,and chop with AK. There are still plenty of hands left that villains could have that you could beat (AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, JJ-88). If you bet the river, the pot is so large, you almost have to call a raise, even though you are probably behind to whoever raises. I think I check/call. What about if you check, MP bets and CO raises? Yuck, I guess call that too since CO could easily have AK and you chop (hoping MP doesn't reraise). If either UTG or CO slowplayed, there could be a lot of bets on this river. I think with all the danger out there, you check and hope to call one bet. Maybe call 2 bets. If you call 2 and it gets capped after that, then you can definitely throw it away.Peace,Opie

[DinkDonk 1]

If this is not intended as sarcasm can you please back it up with some form of discussion because I don't get it at all.

I probably should have said poor methods instead of skewed logic, but sure. I'm not going to take on every individual error, but I just don't like how vague and unquantifiable some of the factors people are using to solve the hand. When you think about your price in a spot like this, it's not enough to say that we could be drawing dead. You should know which hands you're drawing dead and how likely they are based on each action. In pots this big, it makes a pretty big difference just how often each scenario occurs and so it's worth doing the extra thinking to say which hands we're drawing dead to. I just don't feel like it's close to enough hands for us to fold on either the flop or the turn, but I guess I hate folding in general. Anyway, there's really not a lot of constructive criticism I can offer through this loose of a format, but if you are willing/interested in this kind of stuff, I'd recommend browsing through the old LHE challenge thread and posting a bit either there or in these strat forums. If you add something worth discussing, I don't imagine it would be that hard to get people to come back out of the woodwork here.

[RISEorFall 0]

idk I bet cold calling a 4-bet with ak is prob marginal at best. sick as that sounds, i dump it pre.

no. unless we have a good read that all of these guys are nitty as hell. then....well, maybei pretty much agree with dink. 19-1 we can peel with like 2-3 outs. sucks to be drawing dead, but sucks even more to miss out on a huge pot because we incorrectly folded. at most we lose 2-3 bets by calling down, and we lose atleast 10 bets by folding the best hand or a draw to the best hand. when in doubt, err with the least downside. i dunno about b/c the river, tho. i would hate for it to check through, but it'd also suck to get raised, because we beat almost nothing. KQ/KJ with a lone heart, i guess.

[SlapStick 0]

I dont get limit. Why is calling the turn good? We're drawing to non heart ace and kings.

[CoranMoran 0]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comPreflop: Hero is SB with K, AUTG raises, MP 3-bets, CO caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP callsFlop: (17 SB) 4, 7, 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsTurn: (10.5 BB) 3(4 players)Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG callsRiver: (14.5 BB) K(4 players)Hero checks ....

.... UTG checked, MP bet again, CO called, I overcalled, UTG overcalled.MP = 88CO = 66UTG = 55All three had a heart.--cm

[DinkDonk 1]

I dont get limit. Why is calling the turn good? We're drawing to non heart ace and kings.

Well, I think we can completely discount the Ah and Kh as well, so we'll call it 4 dirty outs. At this point, we can discount pretty heavily whether we're drawing dead, though, and we can even assume that an A or K is good almost all of the time vs. the non-bettors. So we'll call it 3 clean, discounted outs + implied odds (which I think are positive for us) for 12.5-1 or 13.5-1 the times the 4th player comes along. At that price, it's close. If you fold the turn, it's a tiny mistake at worst. So if you think an offsuit A or K is good less of the time, you can easily fold. If you think it's good all 4 times or even 3.5, it's a call. If you think you can win 2 bets every time you hit an A or K, it's an easy call. If you think we win on some cards that aren't A or K's (7 maybe). I mean, we can get pretty complicated with reads and different outcomes in a 4 way pot, but I think it's good enough in this spot to say that I think the flop call is easy and the turn decision has a negligible EV influence either way. With reads, you can tweak any answer. It's just about knowing how and when to do so.