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Ok, I'm going to preface this with the fact that I owe a ton to daniel. Over the limited discussions we've had, he's given me very timely advice. I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't think what he was saying right now was like trying to explain inducement bets vs regs at 5-10 HU no limit to someone right after you teach them what small and big blinds are. Advocating such a thin line here to someone who truly sucks at stud 8 is only going to confuse them more / make them worse.That said, a lot of people asked me to repost this here. It's blunt, but it's how I feel.I think daniel is out of his mind if he thinks his advice in it is actually applicable to a non-nosebleed game. He goes back and forth from making the assumptions that you can just magically win a bloated pot if you pick up a few low scare cards to advocating not betting when we hit the perfect scare cards for our hand. From hoping we can get some free cards to betting ourselves even though we know we're behind. WTF sir, WTF.I know he thinks stud 8 is his best game but basically he's just puffing up his chest and trying to be the daniel negreanu that knows what you ate for breakfast with his comments. When his argument boils down to playing the hand out, knowing you have to put in a ton of bets against the hands you're probably facing, hoping to bink a 2 outer that might not be good in an extremely marginal spot, I just kinda have to give up. If his comments are based on knowing the exact players in the hand and how they play, then discussing it in a vacuum is pretty pointless. If he's making decisions based on the current dynamic in the high stakes game described, then again, why try and say that the plays he's advocating are right or wrong with very little grey? I have no doubt at all that I've played more stud 8 in the last 3 years than he has, probably by a factor of 3-5x, and players at the low or mid stakes simply do not behave like he is saying they will. Since that's where damn near everyone on FCP plays, he's just confusing people with his advice.There's no question at all that Daniel is a way better mixed games player than I am (and I am a winning player), but I just hate how black and white he seems to think some of these decisions are. Maybe the line he's advocating (specifically the decision to play the hand at all) is profitable in this game, but it's not in most. I also want to reiterate the incorrect use of current odds on 3rd. It's very misreprestative of the true odds you are facing because of how many cards you have to see and probable bets you have to put in to know if the hand is developing in a way that fits your only profitable options. It's just plain bad math.
I do agree with you on this btwwhat I have read in the last 2 weeks on stud, makes total sense to fold much earlier in that hand yesterday. I will still stand by my decision and fold earlier , might not of on 3rd, even tho I most likely would of 90% of the time but , on 5th for sure
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Did Daniel get his account hacked or something? Admittedly I'm not around a ton, but this is the first DN post I've seen in General in a while, and it's pretty...random...to say the least.Mark
I think Cobalts thread wins random of the year award IMHO.
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Next Question PLO $25-$50: Short handed game you have a limper, then you call from the SB with 4-5s-7-8s. The big blind raises to $200, first guy folds... my man thought he should fold here and I just about choked! It's a pretty good hand to see a flop with. So you call. Flop Qh-6c-5s rainbow with one of your backdoor suits. You check the flop with bottom pair and a wrap straight draw, and he bets $250. This is a good spot to get it in, few hands he could have you crushed with, so you decide to semi-bluff and re-raise the pot another $700 to $950- he calls. Now you have $2350 in the pot, and left in front of you, you have about $5400 (your opponent has more). The turn is the 10h, and it's up to you. What do you do?A) Check and call.B) Bet the pot and call if raised.C) Bet about $1500 and call if raised.D) Bet about $1500 and fold if raised.
I choose C.Betting $1500 into $2350 with $3900 behind will fold out the same range of opponent hands as betting $2350 into $2350 with $3150 behind would. In both cases, our opponent can't expect us to fold if he raises. Unlike most responses so far, if raised, I am NOT happy, although I am still getting it in because we are getting great odds (we have to call $3900 into $9250 if we face an all in , which is ~2.4:1; at worst, we still have 5 clean outs to the nuts (or 6, if our 4 is a heart), and possibly a lot more). Unfortunately, that turn card killed a lot of our nut outs (any heart makes a three-flush and any 7, 8, or 9 gives us a non-nut straight). The BB may have raised [AAxx] PF. If he has the nut heart draw, then he could be raising here, but he also has great equity against our hand, depending on the remaining 2 cards in his hand.But we can't pigeohole him to [AAxx] from his PF raise. He could have raised middle wraps like [7 8 9 T], or [8 9 T J], or he could have 4 broadway cards like [J Q K K] or [Q Q J T]. A lot of these wraps will fold to our flop check-raise, but any that see the turn just became a huge favourite. The [QQxx] hands can generally be discounted as we would see a 3-bet on this flop. Nevertheless, a lot of the other broadway hands/high wraps may peel the turn and now have us in a rough shape.If our opponent just calls our turn bet here, and we brick out, we lose less money when we check-fold the river. And yes, I'm check-folding to a broadway card or a heart. I'm shoving any non-heart card below 7. I'm shoving our nut rivers and am check-calling our non-nut straight card rivers (this may be a leak - maybe open-shoving and/or check-folding is better).After a deeper analysis, I can see a much stronger argument for check-calling that turn card. Nevertheless, I would not advocate taking this line (check-raise flop, followed by the check-call turn)... The primary reason I do not like it, is that our hand would be pretty face-up as a low wrap if we take that option (check-raise flop, check-call turn) and our opponent can confidently play the river perfectly in position against our face-up low wrap type of hand. I also cannot think of ANY hand (aside from our low wrap) which I would consider taking a check-raise flop, check-call turn (definitely not a set, definitely not a bluff) and for that reason, I hate a check-call on the turn.
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I thought it might make it easier to put Daniel's whole thought process in one post at this point along with Naked Cowboy's thoughts.I think some of Cowboy's criticism relates to some of the confusion around Daniel's advice since he's often giving it based on what his internet kid friend did and how to proceed based on that and not on how he would have played the hand from the beginning.I think Daniel's last post is the key one where he says that in order for the call to be the best option you really have to know your stuff. Daniel's advice in this hand is what he would give to his internet kid friend who is an excellent NL Holdem player but not that experienced in the other games but with experience should become good at them as well and also how Daniel would play the hand himself.Cowboy is correct that for the average reader the fold is the better play and Daniel also makes that point in his last post.

OK let's walk through one of the hands he played: Stud 8 3 handed he is the bring in with (JJ) 2. A Ks completes and a Qc calls. What do you do there?
Correct answer on 3rd street: call. Cardinal rule in Stud 8 is that you don't want to play the second best high hand. Since you have a low card up, though, that could earn you free cards if you catch low, and or allow you to steal the pot if you catch something like 5 A. You CANNOT re-raise here! That is awful, and what the internet kid did and he said "standard" I was like whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat????? In stud 8 when a card 9 thru K raises on third street you should give them MORE credit for having the split pair than you would in straight stud high. All re-raising will do is making it MORE difficult to steal the pot if you catch low because you would be making the pot so big that a guy with Queens or Kings will feel forced to call you down even if you hit 2-3-5. Keep the pot small on 3rd street. Now on 4th street: You: (JJ) 2-5A: (x-x) Ks JsB: (x-x) Qc 9d Both players check to you. Do you bet, or do you check?
Ok I'll add, this is a $100-$200 game. 4th street is a very, very tough decision between a check and a bet. If you check, you will completely sell the idea that you just hit a pair of 5's. If you bet, it should be seen as obvious that your hand is a 4 card low. If you want to rep a low hand that may fill on 5th street in the hopes to get Kings or Queens to fold, you would HAVE to bet on 4th street. However, board texture is an important consideration, and in this case I think CHECK is correct. The reason for that, is that:1) Your Jack is dead2) The K caught a suited card so he likely has either a flush draw or scared kings. Based on that I lean towards a check and giving up on the bluff because the boards I'm up against are scary. Now, I want to continue explaining the hand the way it played out for real. My guy did re-raise on 3rd street and then bet on 4th street and it got called in both spots. Fifth street:You (JJ) 2-5-AA: (xx) Ks Js 10sB: (xx) Q 10 9 Now it's up to you with Ace high. Do you bet on fifth street or do you check it? Remember now, you re-raised on third street and bet 4th street.
Ok, now the line the kid took is already super aggressive and bad. However, his betting action will totally throw his opponents off as to what he has. They will assume either:222AA2234A24 etc So, that Ace has to be a scare card which you would THINK should entice him to bluff the hand through. Nope. It's not going to work, because you put too much money in on third street and both opponents now have developed threatening boards and won't just fold on 5th street. Also, checking just might get you a free card! Seriously, if neither player can beat Aces at that point, they will also check on 5th street fearing that you were going for a check-raise on 5th. One pair hands will always check, and two pair hands may check also. Now to 6th street:You: (J-J) 2 5 A 2A: (x-x) Ks Js 10s 10cB: (x-x) Q-10-9-6 Player A bets and player B folds... what now?
The call on 3rd street is the best option by a small margin. Don't forget that you've already got 25 in there so it only costs 75 to call, giving you a decent price to hit any concealed pair. The low card is a power card that gives you control of the betting also. On to 6th street. You have to assume your opponent has a flush or kings up. If he had a flush in 5 with a Q-10-9- board behind him, and the A-2-5 in front of him, if he felt he was up against a low and a high hand drawing dead, he'd want to keep the other high hand in. So you can outdraw him with a Jack, a 2, and MAYBE an Ace. No guarantees that an Ace will help you. There is one Jack left and two 2's left for 3 pure outs... the Aces are outs against his Kings up but not his flushes for an additional 3 outs. If you did plan on making a call on 6th you could never call on the river unimproved. The King hand feels more like a flush to me than kings up. He didn't re-raise on 3rd street, and some players would try to move the Queen out of the pot there to take it heads up against three babies as a favorite. Not saying that's right (we'll leave that for another day) but it's a common play in that spot from split kings. He didn't re-raise on 3, and he'd never re-raise on 3 with a three flush because a hand like that plays better with more players in the pot. Factoring it all in, with my dead jack out, I'd lay it down on 6th street. The kid called. Now on the river... BINK! He catches the Jack! The player with K-J-10-10 showing bets on 7th street. We'll assume you raise with Jacks full, what do you do if he re-raises you again? Do you call or make it 4 bets?
When the high hand re-raises the low board that just raised him, his third bet is never, ever, ever, ever, ever a bluff. With that being a given, we have to figure out what he's raising us with here? He has to be a bit worried about Aces full no? If he is looking at a low board that raised him, he'll probably just call with KKK 10 10 or 10 10 10 K K. For him to 4 bet a board of 2-5-A-2 when the 2 played the hand SO strong on 3rd street, he should generally be worried about 2222 or AAA22. If I had the KKK 10 10 I wouldn't make it 3 bets there. No chance! It's a total donation to my opponents expected range (a made low or Aces full or better). You know what hand I WOULD re-raise him with? Yup. That's right, a straight flush. My man put in the 4th bet and paid off the last bet only to see the one and only hand he could really see- a King High Straight flush, made in 5. You have to really THINK in Stud 8, about people's motivation in a hand, and most importantly what their bets mean in relation to what your board is showing. Seriously. It may not seem like a terrible play to re-raise with Jacks full there, but against any half decent Stud 8 player it's just plain awful. He won't re-raise an A-2-5-2 board with Kings full, assuming that there is no real value there based on the 3rd street action. He should be up against quads or Aces full, or a low. That's literally it. So this example was played extremely bad and it all started with breaking a cardinal Stud 8 rule: the worst types of hands are the second best high hands. Now, I realize that I said the best option is to call on 3rd street, and it is based on the factors mentioned, but at the same time, for inexperienced players, folding on 3rd street will save them a lot of headaches. It's a very tough hand to play and you need to really know what you are doing. I call with it for sure, but I do so because of three things:1) The price2) The pair is hidden. I hit that J on 4 or 5 and I can win a monster.3) I have the only low card showing. That's a power card that cam give me control of the hand. I catch 4-5-6 or something to that effect I just win. Same scenario, K raises, Q calls, and I have split Jacks with a Deuce? I muck it. No concealed power and no scare card up. Calling with (J-2) J is bad, calling with (J-J) 2 is marginal, but ok if you know what you are doing. K, that was fun.
Ok, I'm going to preface this with the fact that I owe a ton to daniel. Over the limited discussions we've had, he's given me very timely advice. I wouldn't be posting this if I didn't think what he was saying right now was like trying to explain inducement bets vs regs at 5-10 HU no limit to someone right after you teach them what small and big blinds are. Advocating such a thin line here to someone who truly sucks at stud 8 is only going to confuse them more / make them worse.That said, a lot of people asked me to repost this here. It's blunt, but it's how I feel.I think daniel is out of his mind if he thinks his advice in it is actually applicable to a non-nosebleed game. He goes back and forth from making the assumptions that you can just magically win a bloated pot if you pick up a few low scare cards to advocating not betting when we hit the perfect scare cards for our hand. From hoping we can get some free cards to betting ourselves even though we know we're behind. WTF sir, WTF.I know he thinks stud 8 is his best game but basically he's just puffing up his chest and trying to be the daniel negreanu that knows what you ate for breakfast with his comments. When his argument boils down to playing the hand out, knowing you have to put in a ton of bets against the hands you're probably facing, hoping to bink a 2 outer that might not be good in an extremely marginal spot, I just kinda have to give up. If his comments are based on knowing the exact players in the hand and how they play, then discussing it in a vacuum is pretty pointless. If he's making decisions based on the current dynamic in the high stakes game described, then again, why try and say that the plays he's advocating are right or wrong with very little grey? I have no doubt at all that I've played more stud 8 in the last 3 years than he has, probably by a factor of 3-5x, and players at the low or mid stakes simply do not behave like he is saying they will. Since that's where damn near everyone on FCP plays, he's just confusing people with his advice.There's no question at all that Daniel is a way better mixed games player than I am (and I am a winning player), but I just hate how black and white he seems to think some of these decisions are. Maybe the line he's advocating (specifically the decision to play the hand at all) is profitable in this game, but it's not in most. I also want to reiterate the incorrect use of current odds on 3rd. It's very misreprestative of the true odds you are facing because of how many cards you have to see and probable bets you have to put in to know if the hand is developing in a way that fits your only profitable options. It's just plain bad math.
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I thought it might make it easier to put Daniel's whole thought process in one post at this point along with Naked Cowboy's thoughts.I think some of Cowboy's criticism relates to some of the confusion around Daniel's advice since he's often giving it based on what his internet kid friend did and how to proceed based on that and not on how he would have played the hand from the beginning.I think Daniel's last post is the key one where he says that in order for the call to be the best option you really have to know your stuff. Daniel's advice in this hand is what he would give to his internet kid friend who is an excellent NL Holdem player but not that experienced in the other games but with experience should become good at them as well and also how Daniel would play the hand himself.Cowboy is correct that for the average reader the fold is the better play and Daniel also makes that point in his last post.
But if his internet friend thinks raising 3rd is standard, which everyone from DN to the people who don't play stud 8 thought was terrible, is he ready for this advice? You're skipping a *lot* of steps in the learning process of the game. Just because he's an innately good poker player, he is clearly several steps behind the point where this would be +EV advice.Thanks for organizing it Bob.
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The call on 3rd street is the best option by a small margin. Don't forget that you've already got 25 in there so it only costs 75 to call, giving you a decent price to hit any concealed pair. The low card is a power card that gives you control of the betting also. On to 6th street. You have to assume your opponent has a flush or kings up. If he had a flush in 5 with a Q-10-9- board behind him, and the A-2-5 in front of him, if he felt he was up against a low and a high hand drawing dead, he'd want to keep the other high hand in. So you can outdraw him with a Jack, a 2, and MAYBE an Ace. No guarantees that an Ace will help you. There is one Jack left and two 2's left for 3 pure outs... the Aces are outs against his Kings up but not his flushes for an additional 3 outs. If you did plan on making a call on 6th you could never call on the river unimproved. The King hand feels more like a flush to me than kings up. He didn't re-raise on 3rd street, and some players would try to move the Queen out of the pot there to take it heads up against three babies as a favorite. Not saying that's right (we'll leave that for another day) but it's a common play in that spot from split kings. He didn't re-raise on 3, and he'd never re-raise on 3 with a three flush because a hand like that plays better with more players in the pot. Factoring it all in, with my dead jack out, I'd lay it down on 6th street. The kid called. Now on the river... BINK! He catches the Jack! The player with K-J-10-10 showing bets on 7th street. We'll assume you raise with Jacks full, what do you do if he re-raises you again? Do you call or make it 4 bets?
you call, your repping a boat and he still raised.
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stud8 limits 100-200 on Stars 8-game has a high ante($25) and the game is 3-handed.DN's guy obviously made a boo-boo by raising. The hand is possibly ahead of 1 hand singularly, but obviously behind the two, though has great deceptive value. We will attempt to increase our scoop chance if the 'lesser' high hand can be folded by threat of squeeze.Looking back over the thread, it seemed the main argument vs DN was 3rd street, not the other streets. Not sure why people are finding this so hard. The thing is apart from what Daniel said about 3rd, is that you can't really wait on the special hands with the antes so high. And by folding all your BI's to a complete in a 3-handed game, you will be way behind when you eventually find your great hands, and be marked down as a rock. Then they'll just get out of your way and then continue to steal all your antes and BI's. You won't know what hit you. Buried pairs such as (JJ)2 are a winner long-term in this sort of game, no question...(JJ)2 might not be the same as (AA)2 but it simply MUST be defended in this short game...

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stud8 limits 100-200 on Stars 8-game has a high ante($25) and the game is 3-handed.DN's guy obviously made a boo-boo by raising. The hand is possibly ahead of 1 hand singularly, but obviously behind the two, though has great deceptive value. We will attempt to increase our scoop chance if the 'lesser' high hand can be folded by threat of squeeze.Looking back over the thread, it seemed the main argument vs DN was 3rd street, not the other streets. Not sure why people are finding this so hard. The thing is apart from what Daniel said about 3rd, is that you can't really wait on the special hands with the antes so high. And by folding all your BI's to a complete in a 3-handed game, you will be way behind when you eventually find your great hands, and be marked down as a rock. Then they'll just get out of your way and then continue to steal all your antes and BI's. You won't know what hit you. Buried pairs such as (JJ)2 are a winner long-term in this sort of game, no question...(JJ)2 might not be the same as (AA)2 but it simply MUST be defended in this short game...
You have the right idea about being active in a three handed game. But you chose the wrong hand to do it with.
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You have the right idea about being active in a three handed game. But you chose the wrong hand to do it with.
I agree with Steve on this one
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Recently I've been talking to some young, excellent NL players that are trying to learn HORSE... my goodness it's funny! They are so in tune and on the ball with NL, but a simple stud 8 scenario seems so much harder for them to grasp then it should. I'm talking really smart kids, but for some reason they have like a mental block with HORSE. I quiz them from time to time and the answers are often so outlandish I have to hold back my laughter, lol. I guarantee when I'm done with them, though, they'll totally get it. They are already starting to understand the logic behind what I'm saying, but it's stuff I need to tell them or they won't get it on their own. It's fun for me :-)
OK, can we revisit this because I really think this is hilarious.I know he added some later, but this post has no content at all. None whatsoever.A "simple" Stud 8 scenario? As in a hand that has generated more discussion on FCP than any other hand in a year? And a situation where DN said himself that there are multiple streets where it is "close".Then the last sentence is basically just underlining the principle of coaching. The point of coaching is that you explain to people things that they don't get on their own. Again, I revert to my first response in this thread. Uhhh, cool?Maybe they have a mental block because they're learning HORSE in a 100/200 Stud 8 game, filled with what I'm sure are very tough players. You gotta learn to walk before you can run, this applies to all games. Daniel, I doubt there's a single game you picked up and instantly started crushing at high limits, and I don't think you can expect your students/horses to do it either.
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fwiw, i think gwcwcgccwcccgcg and navy win this thread.NC, i think that a large part to being able to call third with this stud hand isn't bluffing equity but rather the likelihood of us getting free cards, as we did on fourth until we un-freed it :club:. the hand is basically going to play out like stud hi in terms of showdowns, but we're a lot more likely to get free cards here than in a stud hi setup like this, and calling with a hidden pair here in stud is fairly standard, yes? granted, we aren't going to get a lot of bluffing equity no matter what happens, but the free card equity is plenty high enough to make this an ok call unless the villains are overly aggressive with high hands (this seems unlikely at the limits).as to the PLO hand, i think that navy is 98% correct, and not having the balls to make that play often enough is why i'm not a full time PLO player. my only quibble is that i think that Q10xx middling drawing hands are in that range as well, although i still think that they'd have a ridic hard time calling a double checkraise.

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fwiw, i think gwcwcgccwcccgcg and navy win this thread.NC, i think that a large part to being able to call third with this stud hand isn't bluffing equity but rather the likelihood of us getting free cards, as we did on fourth until we un-freed it :club:. the hand is basically going to play out like stud hi in terms of showdowns, but we're a lot more likely to get free cards here than in a stud hi setup like this, and calling with a hidden pair here in stud is fairly standard, yes? granted, we aren't going to get a lot of bluffing equity no matter what happens, but the free card equity is plenty high enough to make this an ok call unless the villains are overly aggressive with high hands (this seems unlikely at the limits).as to the PLO hand, i think that navy is 98% correct, and not having the balls to make that play often enough is why i'm not a full time PLO player. my only quibble is that i think that Q10xx middling drawing hands are in that range as well, although i still think that they'd have a ridic hard time calling a double checkraise.
Lots of words, but spell it out a bit more please.I didn't disagree with the check shove of NB, for one, because he's super cool, but it is also stronger than the pot/call line, so I kinda like it. On the stud hand, I don't exactly know what you're getting at.
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Lots of words, but spell it out a bit more please.I didn't disagree with the check shove of NB, for one, because he's super cool, but it is also stronger than the pot/call line, so I kinda like it. On the stud hand, I don't exactly know what you're getting at.
in the stud hand, i mean that if we catch a low card, and both other players brick, as it 1/2 turned out to be, we get to take off a free card when they check to us. this, matched with the value of us hitting a jack, makes this a pretty easy call, imo. that said, if we catch like a ten on fourth and face a bet from those kinds of boards, we lose all credibility either way and i toss it.the reason that beginning stud players can't play JJ here is that they will misplay it on later streets. if you told me that we had to bet if we caught low on fourth, i'd tell you to muck on third because that'd be retarded and eliminating half the reason we can call on third in the first place.
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A "simple" Stud 8 scenario? As in a hand that has generated more discussion on FCP than any other hand in a year? And a situation where DN said himself that there are multiple streets where it is "close".
I haven't talked to Daniel about this but my guess is what prompted Daniel to make his original post was the raise on 3rd by his friend which everybody seems to agree is the worst of the 3 decisions at that point by far and the play at the river. What generated most of the discussion here was whether to call or fold on 3rd.
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I'd buy 10% of your action
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Naked Cowboy HU Stud 8 vs DN!I've got $500 on NC if anyone wants to get this party started.
I think DN has plenty of unfinished heads up challenges already. I still wouldn't do this without being leveraged to some degree. Again, the point I'm trying to get across is that the line DN is advocating might be fine and dandy for DN in that game, but in any teaching related context, whether talking to FCP at large or the HSNL player stepping into mixed games, it's terrible advice.also, i <3 zimmer
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OK let's walk through one of the hands he played: Stud 8 3 handed he is the bring in with (JJ) 2. A Ks completes and a Qc calls. What do you do there?
Daniel: I'm not sure what I'm getting myself into here but I'll take the bait. I'm raising in this situation because the bring-in already took my chips and I'm the one holding the jacks, so I make my opps pay to see another card.
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