1/2 Nl Live. Ako 3-bet, 3-way

[Dubey 1,035]

Villain 1 - Button - Only played with him a few times. He is TAGish, thinks he is a good player, but is mostly an idiot. Doesn't 'think' through hands whatsoever, likes to put people on hands that he can beat. I'm pretty sure he views me as a Lag idiot, and is unlikely to give me much respect for a hand, ever.example of this guys thought process form a previous hand.4 limpers, incl. villain, I raise to 14 OTB with 7s8s, get 6 callers. flop 56Jr, checks to me, I check. turn 4. Villain bets 30, mega spewtard who never folds any kind of draw once he's put money in the pot calls $30, folds to me and I raise to 130. villain tanks for a long time, folds, spewtard calls, then check/folds his last $35 on the river. Villain 1 says "nice bet, I put you on a draw". This gave me a good insight into his thought process, considering I'm bluffing like 0% on the turn there with the retard in the hand.Villain 2 - SB - is the spewtard from the above example. doesn't raise much preflop, rarely ever folds once voluntarily putitng money in the pot. his range is almost ATC.Stacks:Villain 1 (Button) - $220Villain 2 (SB) - $240Hero - CoversHero Posts a live straddle ($5), hero: A K Folds to Villain 1 (Button) raises to $15. Villain 2 (SB) calls $15, BB folds, Hero Raises to $60. Villain 1 thinks for a while then calls. Villain 2 calls.($180) flop: 2 4 7 Villain 2 (SB) checks.both villains only have 1 PSB or less left. Do we just stick it in here? c/f, c/c, c/sh? What line would you take?

[tskillz187 0]

I'd check here. I'd also check AA here and KK sometimes. So I'd c/f. If it was heads up I think c/shove is okay.

[KingJames 11]

I hate the "wait for a better spot" response, but against spewtards we can at least wait til we have TPTK+ and they will dust off their stacks...

[qnshustler 0]

Agree with both responses above. 3-way you're almost definitely just throwing away your money here.

[MaxStPolish 4]

Check, with the intention of re-evaluating. If Villain 1 shoves, then i think it's probably a clear fold, unless you can soul read the guy. But I really like the idea of letting Villain 1 try to put a play on here. If he makes a non-shove bet, and then SB folds, I would reasonably think about check raising him. You could very well be ahead based on this villain's makeup, and I think there can still be decent fold equity, as "wannabe good players" seem apt to firing soft into big pots, leaving what seems like too slim amount of money behind to get them to fold their 6:1 call to your raise, but will do it more times than people realize. I really like to think he wouldn't let this hand be 3 handed pre with AA/KK, so unless he set mined at a horrid price, you should still have 6 effective outs plus a potential runners to the flush even if your play is wrong. That's my thought.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Stacks:Villain 1 (Button) - $220Villain 2 (SB) - $240Hero - CoversHero Posts a live straddle ($5), hero: A K Folds to Villain 1 (Button) raises to $15. Villain 2 (SB) calls $15, BB folds, Hero Raises to $60. Villain 1 thinks for a while then calls. Villain 2 calls.($180) flop: 2 4 7 Villain 2 (SB) checks.both villains only have 1 PSB or less left. Do we just stick it in here? c/f, c/c, c/sh? What line would you take?

I'm playing it like AA against these twits and shoving here all day long. We were ahead PF, right? What is it that we think caught up with us on this flop?

[KingJames 11]

77-JJ are well within these villains range, no?

[mtdesmoines 3]

Villain 1 - Button - Only played with him a few times. He is TAGish, thinks he is a good player, but is mostly an idiot. Doesn't 'think' through hands whatsoever, likes to put people on hands that he can beat. I'm pretty sure he views me as a Lag idiot, and is unlikely to give me much respect for a hand, ever.example of this guys thought process form a previous hand.4 limpers, incl. villain, I raise to 14 OTB with 7s8s, get 6 callers. flop 56Jr, checks to me, I check. turn 4. Villain bets 30, mega spewtard who never folds any kind of draw once he's put money in the pot calls $30, folds to me and I raise to 130. villain tanks for a long time, folds, spewtard calls, then check/folds his last $35 on the river. Villain 1 says "nice bet, I put you on a draw". This gave me a good insight into his thought process, considering I'm bluffing like 0% on the turn there with the retard in the hand.Villain 2 - SB - is the spewtard from the above example. doesn't raise much preflop, rarely ever folds once voluntarily putitng money in the pot. his range is almost ATC.both villains only have 1 PSB or less left. Do we just stick it in here? c/f, c/c, c/sh? What line would you take?

I'm kind of going with the "spewtard and idiot" reads here and maybe they have a PP, but usually they show up w garbage here. And if they want to run out the whole board vs. AK, let them.

[tskillz187 0]

I'm playing it like AA against these twits and shoving here all day long. We were ahead PF, right? What is it that we think caught up with us on this flop?

Heh, I disagree with every single thing you wrote here. If you're playing AA like that, it seems pretty bad, no? If you think AK is ahead of them, wtf are they calling a shove with when you have AA? Why would you ever shove AA if you think they have no pair no draw? Let them bluff.What makes you think you are ahead pf? Either player could very easily have a pocket pair. If you check your AA here and villains know that, they are more likely to check back and we get free cards when we have AK to hit, if they don't know that then they'll be bluffing into our over pairs when we do check to them on the flop.I don't disagree with every thing you wrote I guess, I would play AK and AA the same here. But shoving them both is a pretty bad option imo.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Heh, I disagree with every single thing you wrote here. If you're playing AA like that, it seems pretty bad, no? If you think AK is ahead of them, wtf are they calling a shove with when you have AA? Why would you ever shove AA if you think they have no pair no draw? Let them bluff.What makes you think you are ahead pf? Either player could very easily have a pocket pair. If you check your AA here and villains know that, they are more likely to check back and we get free cards when we have AK to hit, if they don't know that then they'll be bluffing into our over pairs when we do check to them on the flop.I don't disagree with every thing you wrote I guess, I would play AK and AA the same here. But shoving them both is a pretty bad option imo.

OK, so go back to the pot the OP referenced. They were PF and flop spewtards, BUT they both folded to pressure at some point in the hand, the spewtard for a ridiculous price. So they can fold when they miss. When I don't hit with my AK, I prefer not to showdown, even though I may or may not be ahead, and shoving seems like a good way to avoid showdown and has to be more profitable than c/fing. I'd hate to check down and lose to an unimproved 33 or something like that. OR, see a J turn and lose to a J8 suited. We got a chunk of their money in the pot, I hate to passive play it away.

[MaxStPolish 4]

Heh, I disagree with every single thing you wrote here. If you're playing AA like that, it seems pretty bad, no? If you think AK is ahead of them, wtf are they calling a shove with when you have AA?

I think that's desmoines point though. Let's take this really big pot down right here is the thought.That being said, I stand behind my line...I think. The only reason I don't want to shove is because I'm pretty sure these guys are calling any PP in hand after this flop. If that flop somehow hit their junk in any way, they are calling as well. The reason i don't like a shove is the fact that I really don't think there's much fold equity for a better hand folding right now, based on the player analysis.All told it's a really shitty situation. Hence my conservative, but staying involved, thoughts. Figure if you get called on a shove you are getting 2:1, and if you are called odds are you are down to 6 outs or 4-5:1 for the turn/river.Does FE make up the difference here? I dunno.

[qnshustler 0]

Heh, I disagree with every single thing you wrote here. If you're playing AA like that, it seems pretty bad, no? If you think AK is ahead of them, wtf are they calling a shove with when you have AA? Why would you ever shove AA if you think they have no pair no draw? Let them bluff.What makes you think you are ahead pf? Either player could very easily have a pocket pair. If you check your AA here and villains know that, they are more likely to check back and we get free cards when we have AK to hit, if they don't know that then they'll be bluffing into our over pairs when we do check to them on the flop.I don't disagree with every thing you wrote I guess, I would play AK and AA the same here. But shoving them both is a pretty bad option imo.

Well said...also mtdesmoines they didn't have to catch up on the flop, as its been said a LOT of pp's are in their range, and if OP is right and villain 1 thinks he is a lag idiot and looks for any reason to call him it won't be hard for him to call here with any pair.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Well said...also mtdesmoines they didn't have to catch up on the flop, as its been said a LOT of pp's are in their range, and if OP is right and villain 1 thinks he is a lag idiot and looks for any reason to call him it won't be hard for him to call here with any pair.

Well if one of them has a PP, that leaves more A's and K's in the deck for us to hit. Really, their majority of their ranges are suited cards, connectors and low-mid pp's that are hard for them to call with and easy for us to beat.And shoving with no pair does good things for our image. And these are 1/2 live retards, a truly special breed.

[qnshustler 0]

Well if one of them has a PP, that leaves more A's and K's in the deck for us to hit. Really, their majority of their ranges are suited cards, connectors and low-mid pp's that are hard for them to call with and easy for us to beat.And shoving with no pair does good things for our image. And these are 1/2 live retards, a truly special breed.

I think we disagree on how "hard" it is for them to call. OP indicated that villain 1 doesn't give him any respect and looks for any reason to call, and that villain 2 has a major hard time folding once he has invested anything. Going by that I really don't see much FE here. And as for the image comment, c'mon you probably know better than to make a play because it "does good things for our image" =/

[MaxStPolish 4]

Well if one of them has a PP, that leaves more A's and K's in the deck for us to hit. Really, their majority of their ranges are suited cards, connectors and low-mid pp's that are hard for them to call with and easy for us to beat.And shoving with no pair does good things for our image. And these are 1/2 live retards, a truly special breed.

I factored that in too, but this is really pricey advertising. All told though I agree that shoving isn't AS bad as the consensus is making it out to be. I just think it's a bad position that unfortunately two bad players came along for the flop. You can justify just about any course of action i think. probably a good hand to just do the opposite your current image, whatever it may be, and then just noting the result and moving on accordingly.

[Dubey 1,035]

I should also mention that I'm pretty sure Villain 1 has like a mini personal vendetta against me since I stacked his AA with KK aipf in a previous session. He has been glaring at me all night, lol. I honestly think this opens his range a LOT here. I wouldn't be shocked to see like KTs, JQs Axs in his hand.Honsetly, I'm not worried about Villain 2 here. I'm still ahead of his range. If he hit the flop, he's stacking off. He also sometimes stacks off with worse than AK here. The fact that he called $60 does not increase the chance that he has a PP, IMO. 46 offsuit is just as much in his range as J8o, as 77 etc..The problem I see with checking is that the button is going to check back a lot of his range, IMO. He isn't overly aggro post flop. Yes, this gives us a chance to hit an A or K, but it also gives both players a chance to catch up if they are behind, and makes it super difficult to continue with the hand if there is any action at all on the turn, while simultaneously encouraging action on further streets by showing weakness, bad combo IMO. Also, I wouldn't be checking AA here, I'd be shoving for value, and I realize this contradicts the idea of shoving AK in the same spot, but I think the pot is huge enough that it doesn't really matter. I'm not like 100% on this, but checking just felt so wrong and weak at the time..

[mtdesmoines 3]

I think we disagree on how "hard" it is for them to call. OP indicated that villain 1 doesn't give him any respect and looks for any reason to call, and that villain 2 has a major hard time folding once he has invested anything. Going by that I really don't see much FE here. And as for the image comment, c'mon you probably know better than to make a play because it "does good things for our image" =/

In live games, we have to be entertainers to be decently profitable.If the table is fairly stable -- meaning we'll be working with this cast of characters a lot, shoving here is good. Very good.Or we have to run like God.

[Dubey 1,035]

In live games, we have to be entertainers to be decently profitable.If the table is fairly stable -- meaning we'll be working with this cast of characters a lot, shoving here is good. Very good.Or we have to run like God.

for the record, I play in a smallish city where there is only one table on most nights. I've played with 7/9 of the other players before and they all know me (I'm 6'9" so very recognizable and I play fairly often), and I will be playing with them all again sometime in the future, guaranteed.edit: re: location, i don't live in Calgary anymore.

[qnshustler 0]

In live games, we have to be entertainers to be decently profitable.If the table is fairly stable -- meaning we'll be working with this cast of characters a lot, shoving here is good. Very good.Or we have to run like God.

Meh...I guess if such things work for you thats fine. I don't like making plays in order to affect my image, I just stay aware of what my image is based on how things have gone.

[KingJames 11]

I like the discussion going on. While OP wants to disregard the 2nd villain, I think it's important to remember that donks get dealt big hands, too. On a 7 high flop, 99 is the nuts to such a player. Due to the fact that it's a multiway pot, I can't find a shove here.Regarding image, I think gnshustler is correct about being aware of your image and going off of that.

[Dubey 1,035]

I like the discussion going on. While OP wants to disregard the 2nd villain, I think it's important to remember that donks get dealt big hands, too. On a 7 high flop, 99 is the nuts to such a player. Due to the fact that it's a multiway pot, I can't find a shove here.Regarding image, I think gnshustler is correct about being aware of your image and going off of that.

I'm not necessarily 'disregarding' villain 2, but his range is almost ATC. so the chance he has us beat is the chance that a random hand hit a pair on this flop + the chance that he holds a pocket pair. Somebody can do the math and prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure we are still ahead of his range, even after we miss. plus. when we are behind, we almost always have 6 clean outs + backdoor flush and straight draws when we are behind.Villain 2's range is IMO: 66-QQ (although I'd only throw in 1-2 combos of JJ and QQ because I think he just shoves those two hands against me preflop) and a whole wack of overcard combos. I believe we are ahead of his range also. While we may be slightly behind the collective range of the 2 villains, I think the pot size justifies a shove. This is mostly just speculation on my part as I haven't run any numbers. Another note about Villain 2, which leads me to believe he doesn't have a monster already (2p or sets) is the following hand:He limps, 1 other limp, I raise to 12 OTB with KQo, he calls, flop KJ3, he bets 125 into $30 pot. I tank and fold, he shows J3.basically, if we shove, one of the following situations occurs:1. everyone folds and we win $1802. we get called by one player and lose $160(75-80%)3. we get called by one player and win $340 (20-25%)Seems profitable to shove, but I could be wrong I guess, these could also be favourable ranges/numbers, but I don't think so.

[rbakken2504 0]

I'm going to have to agree with the majority of posters saying c/f....being that you've said their range is WIDE, makes it a stronger argument to fold, because of the way these type of players think. Especially key is the fact you straddled, and think that the villain thinks youre a LAG...these players will assume youre "protecting" your straddle and will stack off with close to anything, from any pair to OESD, and FD....not to mention donkeys do have monsters sometimes (ie set, two pair, AA, KK). The way you've described these opponents, (and in my personal experience in live 1/2 NL games) you dont have too much FE here.The good spots in these games come a dime a dozen, no reason to put yourself in a precarious situation here.

[BaseJester 1]

I generally like to 3-bet preflop with AK from out-of-position against a late position raise. But when I do, I'm trying to represent a big pair. If the sum total of all the reads and opinions is that the villains won't give you credit for an overpair, I don't think there's much point to 3-betting preflop. On the other hand, if there's a jack or queen on the flop we probably have a better chance of representing TPTK having 3-bet. But in those cases we can very easily be reverse dominated on the flop by AJ or AQ.

[mtdesmoines 3]

Heh, I disagree with every single thing you wrote here. If you're playing AA like that, it seems pretty bad, no? If you think AK is ahead of them, wtf are they calling a shove with when you have AA? Why would you ever shove AA if you think they have no pair no draw? Let them bluff.What makes you think you are ahead pf? Either player could very easily have a pocket pair. If you check your AA here and villains know that, they are more likely to check back and we get free cards when we have AK to hit, if they don't know that then they'll be bluffing into our over pairs when we do check to them on the flop.I don't disagree with every thing you wrote I guess, I would play AK and AA the same here. But shoving them both is a pretty bad option imo.

So I was thinking overnight about your post, and I guess it boils down to the answer to this question: why would it be bad to shove AA?

[SwolyswoND 1]

So I was thinking overnight about your post, and I guess it boils down to the answer to this question: why would it be bad to shove AA?

Because the only hands that are going to call you are going to be PP, whether they have set or not. If it's a set then it's a cooler and we don't worry about how we played it obv...so let's look at the PP that didn't set. If you shove AA on the flop, they may or may not call you, depending on your image, their type of game, and sometimes just how they feel. If we check AA on the flop here, we're giving a maximum of two outs to catch up, so the free card doesn't hurt us. By checking it also makes us look weaker, so when we shove the turn they are more likely to call with that unimproved PP. People LOVE to put an opponent on AK.