qnshustler 0 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 How can calling be "correct" If I have the worst hand? I would rather keep my money. Why put my money in when I"m 2nd best?I know what your are saying about odds and I kinda agree with you. But I will always be happy folding a losing hand that in it's self is correct isn'tCM is 1000% right. The fact that you were right in this situation Shane and you're letting that convince you is being results oriented. You have to play the odds here and you were getting 175:16 pot odds, right? Thats better than 10:1, so unless you can be POSITIVE that you have the worst hand less than 1 out of 10 times, you absolutely have to call, its not even close. And you will never be that positive, ever, so it is a losing play for you to fold. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 CM is 1000% right. The fact that you were right in this situation Shane and you're letting that convince you is being results oriented. You have to play the odds here and you were getting 175:16 pot odds, right? Thats better than 10:1, so unless you can be POSITIVE that you have the worst hand less than 1 out of 10 times, you absolutely have to call, its not even close. And you will never be that positive, ever, so it is a losing play for you to fold.I would never fold two overcards in this spot for that price. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I would never fold two overcards in this spot for that price.I could understand it more on the river, but hell, you're getting 10:1 with a card left to come with two overs.Folding is very bleh. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 How can calling be "correct" If I have the worst hand? I would rather keep my money. Why put my money in when I"m 2nd best?I know what your are saying about odds and I kinda agree with you. But I will always be happy folding a losing hand that in it's self is correct isn'tYou have KK and raise to $5. Villian re-raises to $20. You re-raise to $80. Villian says 'call' and flips up AA thinking your raise was enough to put him allin. Turn out Villian has $83. So 161.50 is in the pot. Are you really folding for $3 more here? If so thats horrific. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 You have KK and raise to $5. Villian re-raises to $20. You re-raise to $80. Villian says 'call' and flips up AA thinking your raise was enough to put him allin. Turn out Villian has $83. So 161.50 is in the pot. Are you really folding for $3 more here? If so thats horrific. Link to post Share on other sites
antistuff 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 get the seat directly to his right. buy in short. limp reraise him a lot. profit. if he is really raising that much he is going to control the entire table so use the way they are going to adjust to him against all of them. people dismiss short stacking way too quickly. the only hangup is that in a home game you might not be all that welcome back playing like this. Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 CM is 1000% right. The fact that you were right in this situation Shane and you're letting that convince you is being results oriented.Let's clarify something here.Hero's point is that he made this questionable move because he was 100% confident with his read.But what exactly was Hero's read?Now I know odds tell me to call..but I know I have the worst hand!!! I"m 100% sure of that...so I don't like playing the correct odds and calling even tho I know I'm beat so..I fold...and everyone at the table screas "you can't fold that"!!! but I did...and he turned over A Q ....He says he knew he was behind.But what does this mean?It certainly does not imply that he knew Villain had AQ.In fact, Hero has no idea what cards Villain holds here.In actuality, the read was not that he knew he was behind.Hero's point is that his read tells him that Villain is strong.And he is "100% confident" in his read that Villain is strong.And that's why he mucked his hand. But if I am reading the original post correctly, both hero and Villain completely missed the board.They each have only Ace high.Which means that Villain's turn push was intended completely as a bluff.And he was likely sure that hero were ahead when he made the play.Villain's hand and his play represented complete and total weakness.Which means that Hero's read was incorrect.Point:Even in this exact example, we see a case in which a "100% sure" read can be totally wrong.And if that's the case on the hand you choose to post about, recognize that your reads on some of your other hands might not always be right either.And that's ok. None of us are 100% accurate with our reads.But it's just essential that we all recognize this.--cm Link to post Share on other sites
Shane L 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 Villain is strong[/u].And he is "100% confident" in his read that Villain is strong.And that's why he mucked his hand. --cmI see your point. But Villain doesn't have to be strong for me to fold my hand. He has to have a "stronger hand" than hero. My 100% read was that I was beat, not that Villain was strong. He didn't have to be...I had nothing!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I see your point. But Villain doesn't have to be strong for me to fold my hand. He has to have a "stronger hand" than hero. My 100% read was that I was beat, not that Villain was strong. He didn't have to be...I had nothing!!!!If Villain bluffs wth AQ, he bluffs here with anything.Your AJ can beat anything.A read on this villain doesn't tell us if we are ahead.It tell us if the villain thinks we are ahead.Your read was that this villain thought we were behind.You were wrong.Appreciate the difference here.--cm Link to post Share on other sites
reboot 0 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Plays like this make your redline look like a downhill racetrack.... Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Thanks for the insight guys!!!Bought in for $100..left with $80. I was up $90 at one point. I played super tight... and really tried to have a really good read on the table (I think I did that) Didn't get any hands to be honest with you. but when I did... I played them right except for one A J suited...where I lost most of my money from my super aggressive guy. He raised to $7 (again) 4 other callers and then I re raised to $25 (playing my tight image I have worked hard to get). He calls (after going into the tank) Everyone else folds. Flop comes nothing (junk for my A J) Didn't know what to do..so I bet $40...and goes into the tank again....and calls!!!! .... Now I give up...river comes up junk again...He goes all in..for $16.....Now I know odds tell me to call..but I know I have the worst hand!!! I"m 100% sure of that...so I don't like playing the correct odds and calling even tho I know I'm beat so..I fold...and everyone at the table screas "you can't fold that"!!! but I did...and he turned over A Q ....(he did have me beat)....So I lost a ton there....but..meh....But overall I thought I played well...I had a good read at the table and Played the hands that should of been played and played them well!Any comments would be greatfull!Thanks again!It's really hard to make sense of stack sizes. Assuming you had $190 at the time of this hand and villain had you covered, re-raise to $60 and then go all-in on the flop. Assuming you had $100 at the time of this hand and villain had you covered, just go all-in pre-flop. I think this is an okay hand to squeeze, but you absolutely must make the right size re-raise to commit yourself and set up a post-flop shove. Link to post Share on other sites
KingJames 11 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yeah, villain had ~80 to start the hand, and cobalt do you think the squeeze is > seeing a flop multiway with AJss, or are you saying as played... Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yeah, villain had ~80 to start the hand, and cobalt do you think the squeeze is > seeing a flop multiway with AJss, or are you saying as played...I'm definitely fine with flatting and seeing it multiway, though I probably prefer squeezing in this scenario. Just saying that if villain really is raising this much, our hand definitely has value (and should have value against the other flatters). I think we've got the best hand or a flip a huge percentage of the time (with plenty of money in the pot to compensate for whatever happens) and should have FE based on our image as described.Something else that would help a bit is to know positions. Link to post Share on other sites
IAGTTAYM 0 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Get position on the super loose player and play a ton of pots in position vs him. If he calls alot of 3 bets oop, then 3 bet him until the end of time. Link to post Share on other sites
Pot Odds RAC 23 Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Hate to say it but this is probably totally backwards. If he's raising frequently you're going to be running into him with 67s with your big hands a lot. Assuming he is a competent player as OP stated, if he's raising 90%+ of his hands preflop he has to be good postflop to be competent.What you do is start opening your 3betting range in position against this guy, and don't be afraid to go for limp-raises when this guy is going to act behind you. Build the pots big early with him and don't be afraid to stack off lighter than you normally would since most of the pots you will be in with him will be 3 bet pots.This.The "problem" with playing against a Super Aggressive player is that you are going to have to get used to putting money into the pot with hands that you ordinarily wouldn't play. This can be disconcerting - which is exactly what a Super Aggressive player is trying to achieve. He wants you out of your comfort zone. I am naturally pretty TAG, so it took me a long time to get used to playing with this type of player. Your variance is going to go up. The trick is going to be in choosing how to punish this guy for his Aggression. Often I will let the Super Aggressive do my work for me. Check Raising when out of position is VERY effective - especially with a strong hand preflop. Wait for a strong hand and let him bet and get several callers trying to take advantage of him, then take it down with a big raise.The other thing you need to avoid is the Super Aggressive who knows how to change gears. He goads you into opening your range, turning you into the over-aggressive player, then he tightens and waits for his opportunities. Link to post Share on other sites
Karrol Lina 0 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I play alot of live cash games,and have run into my share of aggressive players, Not as much lately but when I was younger they seemed to assume I was half retarded and make it their full time jobs to annoy the hell out of me.. Strategy One...Would be against an aggressive maniac who runs over the table, wins alot but really does not know anything about poker. You really cant talk strategy with this player because well, he doesn't know any. This player generally will back off on a re-raise if they have hit nothing at all. I mean nothing too, they will call you with 1 out and reraise just because. You will know if he is this type of player, by his actions after you fold. For some reason they don't show their bluffs that much because it IS the only way they win. Watch when you are out of the hand to see if he is coming up with good hands or he is betting like a maniac with pocket two's and the flop is AAQ. It can take awhile to figure this out, especially if he has been running over your buddies for awhile. The reason is because they will do anything to not get to the river card lol. This type of player can be frustrating, because unless you hit a monster its hard to call a 50 dollar bet with only 2.00 dollars in the pot. This guys game is just getting you to fold. Usually with this type of player they don't reraise your bets on the flop, generally only preflop or the river. He usually will take huge advantage of a timid player, or a player who checks, cause again, they just want to steal the pot. You probably wont see a check raise on the flop. If you bet first, and it is a decent size bet he generally will back off. Another thing to watch for is at showdown they will usually have a pretty pathetic hand and will say "I only called because I thought you were bluffing.. Anyways, Generally with this type of player I will check , call, check, call etc. A reraise usually does not work because at this point they know that you have something and you wont get as much cash out of him. Don't turn into a calling station with him though, call when you have a very strong preflop hand or have good position with a marginal hand. If I hit the flop I generally will just check. If I miss the flop, I will bet and if he reraises probably fold if I am dead in the water. If I have a good drawing hand or many outs I will call. The key to beating this player, is for him to feel his chip stack is dwindling, hurt his pride a bit. So if you feel that another player besides the Maniac in the hand, has you beat. Let them win the hand. Don't go to war with him just because, it will be even easier, to collect his chips once he got a good beating on a hand. You will see his behavior change and the bets will even get bigger (if that's possible) So model the behavior of a loose passive fish, without the fishiness lol..This type of player will pay you off big time on your good hands cause the pots get huge..Again don't pay him off though with marginal hands just because your trying to beat him. Ultimately your trying to make money, not win a competition if you know what I mean.. Having position on this player is very important a check raise doesn't work as well cause he is prideful, and will usually fold and muck. He don't want to get caught doing something stupid. Scenario 2.. Is a loose aggressive player who is not a complete donk, but just really over values his hands. He will try to wear you down and drive you crazy. Generally if you get to the river this player will have a hand,, its usually not the four of a kind that you were for sure that he had, but usually two pair or better. You will see this player trap more and you will see more suited connectors and drawing hands played. The guy plays valid hands but just bets the bejesus out of them. The way I approach this is to sit back and wait for a good hand. Any hand that you would not want to call a good raise with don't play. It will get expensive if you limp with marginal hands. The other posts in this thread were great advice lots of, three bets, and reraises on your good hands. This type of player you will have to be more patient with,because they generally wont pay you off trying to keep a bluff. They will generally at least have somewhat of a hand, and most times wont just stone cold bet, they usually have outs or at least a pair of something. The problem with this player is they will put alot of money into the pot on a draw and will call a very large raise just to do so. Be careful that the cards you need for a straight wont give him a flush etc..So sometimes if I just have top pair and I am getting alot of resistance on a scary flop I will let it go versus pay him off on his draws. Funny things is this player generally will pay you off on your draws though, if they have AA KK AQ QQ etc..They always think they have the best hand when it is the other way around. Giving off a tight image wont matter with him because he wont care lol. Its best, if you can keep him to the right of you. If you cant, a good check raise works great too. Position and strong hands would be my best advice with him. Just come after him with full force if you have the best hand. If he is the second type of player, I wouldn't reraise with AJ, I would call only. With the first player I would reraise, if we were heads up, or if was the only other player in the hand. That could just be me though, ive seen other players do well with AJ however, its never been a great performer for me...Now for advice on how to beat a loose aggressive shark, ala.. Gus Hanson. I have no clue..Still working on that one.Good luck and hopefully this didn't seem like just basic info, as I have no idea on your skill level, but thought I would throw in my two cents as Ive had to deal with my share of maniacs. I don't know maybe I look like an idiot and they think im an easy mark, lol Link to post Share on other sites
CobaltBlue 662 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I play alot of live cash games,and have run into my share of aggressive players, Not as much lately but when I was younger they seemed to assume I was half retarded and make it their full time jobs to annoy the hell out of me..Oh. Welcome. Good first post but might want to break the paragraphs up a bit so they're not intimidating walls of text. Link to post Share on other sites
Karrol Lina 0 Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Oh. Welcome. Good first post but might want to break the paragraphs up a bit so they're not intimidating walls of text.Lol, fair enough. Paragraphs certainly would have made it a much easier read, and lets not even go there on the typos lol Hopefully nobody has to read this out loud, I would hate to be responsible for someone passing out from lack of oxygen. Thanks for the welcome, I have been reading the forum for awhile just never replied or posted, lots of good information in here. I look forward to posting more (with more paragraphs) Link to post Share on other sites
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