Can I Call The River?

[wildspoke 2]

Fairly deep in the tournament. We are both big stacks at the table. The hand before the villain flashed AA after getting no action. Villain is fairly TAG.I'm dealt JJ UTG +1. Villain UTG raises. I reraise making it 7600. Everyone folds to the under the gun who flats. Flop comes [Ts Kh 2h]. Villain checks. I check behind. Turn is another king. Villain bets 4800. I call. River is a 2 and the Villain moves all in for 21k. He has me coverd by about 4k. What should I do?Full Tilt Poker Game #13888414199: $8 + 0.80 Tournament (102396513), Table 15 - 600/1200 Ante 150 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:54:50 ET - 2009/08/07Seat 1: lobstercountry (3,704), is sitting outSeat 2: VILLAIN (34,498)Seat 3: HERO (29,521)Seat 4: gecktrix (11,978)Seat 7: manolo92626 (57,957)Seat 8: Melinda440 (21,896)lobstercountry antes 150VILLAIN antes 150HERO antes 150gecktrix antes 150manolo92626 antes 150Melinda440 antes 150manolo92626 posts the small blind of 600Melinda440 posts the big blind of 1,200The button is in seat #4*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to HERO [Jc Js]lobstercountry foldsVILLAIN raises to 3,600HERO has 15 seconds left to actHERO raises to 7,600gecktrix foldsmanolo92626 has 15 seconds left to actmanolo92626 foldsMelinda440 foldsVILLAIN has 15 seconds left to actVILLAIN calls 4,000*** FLOP *** [Ts Kh 2h]VILLAIN checksHERO checks*** TURN *** [Ts Kh 2h] [Ks]VILLAIN has 15 seconds left to actVILLAIN bets 4,800HERO calls 4,800*** RIVER *** [Ts Kh 2h Ks] [2d]VILLAIN has 15 seconds left to actVILLAIN bets 21,948, and is all inHERO calls 16,971, and is all inUncalled bet of 4,977 returned to VILLAIN

[qnshustler 0]

If villain is indeed TAG looks like you're beat. Board is extremely drawy so I think checking flop is bad, you should have cbet. His small bet on turn is suspect, could either be a "see where I'm at" type of bet or, more likely, trying to get a little value hoping you have something to play with. If I were him I might take the same line with AK. From villain's perspective it's hard to see you folding river after calling the turn so he just shoved hoping you might see it as a bluff. I most likely fold river, and depending on how strong your read is you may just fold turn.

[SuperJon 175]

1. Don't min reraise him before the flop. This is no limit. Make it 10250 to go.2. Bet the flop hard. I think it's going to be difficult to know where you are with JJ postflop when an overcard hits the flop. Betting can sometimes make that less difficult.3. Fold river. Would anyone argue against just shoving PF??

[qnshustler 0]

Would anyone argue against just shoving PF??

Depends how TAG we believe villain to be. It is certainly a viable option given that our effective M is I believe <10. We have a lot of FE I think but it really comes down to what range villain will open with utg. I agree with you that we should have raised more prf but even then we're basically committing ourselves especially after our assumed cbetting the flop. Maybe it is better to just shove prf given all that. I can't say I would but its not a bad idea here.

[TrueAce13 18]

I'm shoving PF

[DonkSlayer 1]

Shove preflop ainec.Stack sizes are too awkward really. I'm not sure I like raising 10k-12k any more than i like folding.

[outsider13 0]

I agree, shove pre. Stacks are too awkward for post flop play.

[Mercury69 3]

Shove preflop ainec.Stack sizes are too awkward really. I'm not sure I like raising 10k-12k any more than i like folding.

I was thinking this also. I think you really have to put the raiser on a decision here. I think villain has AK or, more likely, AT which means he think his two pair top kicker are good. If he has AK or any naked K, you're buggered. As it stands, it's up to you to make that friggin' decision...For me, it would depend on how frustrated I was, but I think I could fold this 6 out of 10 times...

[BeaverStyle 1]

Shove preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-flooop

[wildspoke 2]

I'm shoving PF

Shove preflop ainec.Stack sizes are too awkward really. I'm not sure I like raising 10k-12k any more than i like folding.

I agree, shove pre. Stacks are too awkward for post flop play.

Shove preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-flooop

Ok so there are a lot of voices that suggest an all in pre-flop. But the question, the way the hand played out, is a river call a bad play?If you're going to push pre - does that also mean you're going to call the river?

[SuperJon 175]

Ok so there are a lot of voices that suggest an all in pre-flop. But the question, the way the hand played out, is a river call a bad play?If you're going to push pre - does that also mean you're going to call the river?

Pushing pre has nothing to do with calling the river.Since we've made it to the river, we now have much more information to go by, and with that information, I vote fold.

[wildspoke 2]

Pushing pre has nothing to do with calling the river.Since we've made it to the river, we now have much more information to go by, and with that information, I vote fold.

1. Don't min reraise him before the flop. This is no limit. Make it 10250 to go.2. Bet the flop hard. I think it's going to be difficult to know where you are with JJ postflop when an overcard hits the flop. Betting can sometimes make that less difficult.3. Fold river. Would anyone argue against just shoving PF??

Ok, I think a fold on the river is reasonable.Maybe an alternative to a shove or a re-raise pre-flop is simply to call in position.Bet the flop and then shut down if there is a call or check raise.

[Canary3 1]

I think this is an easy shove preflop. Calling in position will only put you into a guessing game for a bunch of your chips. You are asking to be bluffed out if you are insta shutting down on bad flops and calls.