SuperJon 175 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Can the AIPF folks explain their reasoning on this one? We're getting called by AK and possibly AQ. We're getting called by a lot of pairs. And it's debatable whether we have much FE. I'd just like to hear the reasoning behind it more.If we're that worried about the raiser having AK or AQ, then why bother calling PF?When we flat PF, and then flop an A, what do we do? Are we still worried about AK or AQ?Shoving>>>>>Folding>>>>>>>>>>>Calling Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Repop the flop enough to encourage a fold but not so much as to commit yourself to the pot. Pushing a minraise with AJs is retarded. As played, check/shove the flop. I think villian folds any hand here within his range having aired the flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Repop the flop enough to encourage a fold but not so much as to commit yourself to the pot. Pushing a minraise with AJs is retarded. As played, check/shove the flop. I think villian folds any hand here within his range having aired the flop.I love the irony. Link to post Share on other sites
HighwayStar 8 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Repop the flop enough to encourage a fold but not so much as to commit yourself to the pot.Spectacularly retarded. 3 bet calling is way better than 3 bet folding here. They are both high variance marginal playsPushing a minraise with AJs is retarded.If by retarded you mean mathematically correct and almost always the most +EV play..then yes I agree.As played, check/shove the flop.Yes!I think villian folds any hand here within his range having aired the flop.I'm going to deliberately misinterpret this and laugh at you for thinking he's going to fold Tens. In fact there is quite a lot f his range he's not folding on this flop. I think you're only targeting AQ/AK/KQ/55-. the aces might call anyway since there are so many draws out there.It's still a good play...but purely for the huge equity of your hand and not so much for bluffing. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Repop the flop enough to encourage a fold but not so much as to commit yourself to the pot. Pushing a minraise with AJs is retarded. As played, check/shove the flop. I think villian folds any hand here within his range having aired the flop.I always look forward to listening to your knowledge throughout the forum.Obviously this is a CRAI. You guys suck who say AIPF Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I always look forward to listening to your knowledge throughout the forum.Obviously this is a CRAI. You guys suck who say AIPF+1. AIPF is spew, IMO Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 +1. AIPF is spew, IMOafaik you and most everyone else that posts here regularly are spewing without realizing it. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I thought spewing was the best way to win tournys imo Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 afaik you and most everyone else that posts here regularly are spewing without realizing it.Then help me (us) out and explain why instead of just saying "you're wrong." I'm here to learn. I'm not a high stakes player live nor online but I do pretty freaking well at the game at midstakes. Reshipping 20 BBs with AJ seems very spewy to me, I would do it with 13-17 BB or so but any higher than that seems off to me. IMO when you reshove this high, the risk/return isn't worth it because JJ+, AQ+ is always calling and I still think it's rare we fold out 99-TT. Against hands like AT/KQ/KJ we don't want them to fold, and probably the same with 44-88 because we have better value postflop against those hands.I'd love to hear if I'm wrong though, but I would want to know why. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 ok vs that range AJs has 46% equity. That range constitutes 11.9% of preflop holdingsI'd say a random villain is probably opening something like this22+,A7s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JToWhich is 19.8% of handsSo you're getting a fold abut 40% of the time on a shove and you;re flipping the rest.Easy shove. Extremely +EV.Even if he's only opening about 14% it's still gonna be +EV.I could prob find some ranges where it's a lot closer.^^^^^^AnswerThen help me (us) out and explain why instead of just saying "you're wrong." I'm here to learn. I'm not a high stakes player live nor online but I do pretty freaking well at the game at midstakes. Reshipping 20 BBs with AJ seems very spewy to me, I would do it with 13-17 BB or so but any higher than that seems off to me. IMO when you reshove this high, the risk/return isn't worth it because JJ+, AQ+ is always calling and I still think it's rare we fold out 99-TT. Against hands like AT/KQ/KJ we don't want them to fold, and probably the same with 44-88 because we have better value postflop against those hands.I'd love to hear if I'm wrong though, but I would want to know why.mtt regs are now saying that it is a +EV decision to open jam ~20bbs deep b/c of blinds and antes.Edit: Kind of what Tehtoe said with Shaun Deeb...he says "if you aren't getting it in behind, your not getting it in enough Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Highwaystar pretty much nailed it, but overall it's becoming more and more standard (and unexploitable) to open jam up to 15 bbs (20ish bvb) and reshove up to like a 25ish BB range.It's just frustrating to have people be so close-minded (even if this isn't the intention) and just declare things a spew without really being open to the math that shows it being a hugely +EV play and things like that.Overall our goal is to make longterm winning plays. If we're against JJ+ and AQ+ here a decent %, so what? I think Shaun Deeb said it best when he said that the flaw in level 2 thinking is people applying the ranges they THEMSELVES would use in their opponent's spot, when most opponent's don't play exactly the same as you do, and their calling ranges are often going to be much wider than what you expect. I think highway's stove ranges are prob pretty close to accurate, and because of that the shove>>>>>>>>any other options, and it isn't even really close. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 This stuff is continuous, it never ends. People keep arguing for the same flawing thinking points, it's not going to stop. I have probably had more arguments than anyone in this forum because of it. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Highwaystar pretty much nailed it, but overall it's becoming more and more standard (and unexploitable) to open jam up to 15 bbs (20ish bvb) and reshove up to like a 25ish BB range.It's just frustrating to have people be so close-minded (even if this isn't the intention) and just declare things a spew without really being open to the math that shows it being a hugely +EV play and things like that.Overall our goal is to make longterm winning plays. If we're against JJ+ and AQ+ here a decent %, so what? I think Shaun Deeb said it best when he said that the flaw in level 2 thinking is people applying the ranges they THEMSELVES would use in their opponent's spot, when most opponent's don't play exactly the same as you do, and their calling ranges are often going to be much wider than what you expect. I think highway's stove ranges are prob pretty close to accurate, and because of that the shove>>>>>>>>any other options, and it isn't even really close.Is it only because we're oop that reshove is better? I feel that although unexploitable, we lose a LOT of value against weaker hands in the opener's range, and although Highwaystar's post was very good, I don't agree with the calling range. OP said that villain would call the reshove with 33+, AT+, KQ. I understand your point Tehtoe about the flaw in Level 2 thinking, but even throwing out what MY personal calling range would be to the reshove, I can't imagine that it was really as high as OP said here. I would think something like 77+, AJ+ is more reasonable. Against that range we're in big trouble if called, and we're losing a lot of value from the weaker hands in the range that we fold out. Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJon 175 Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Is it only because we're oop that reshove is better? I feel that although unexploitable, we lose a LOT of value against weaker hands in the opener's range, and although Highwaystar's post was very good, I don't agree with the calling range. OP said that villain would call the reshove with 33+, AT+, KQ. I understand your point Tehtoe about the flaw in Level 2 thinking, but even throwing out what MY personal calling range would be to the reshove, I can't imagine that it was really as high as OP said here. I would think something like 77+, AJ+ is more reasonable. Against that range we're in big trouble if called, and we're losing a lot of value from the weaker hands in the range that we fold out.Yes. I'd be split on shoving/calling if I were on the button. Isn't getting those weaker hands to fold preflop more valuable than all the times we flat, and then have no idea where we are post flop because we are out of posistion. Playing postflop is cool and everything, but if I have a chance to take down a pot preflop when the blinds and antes are significant, then I'm all for it. Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I heart highwaystar's manhandling. Link to post Share on other sites
Dhall901 0 Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I heart highwaystar's manhandling.edit: you crazy kids are going to make me deposit online. Link to post Share on other sites
DonkSlayer 1 Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 ^^^^^^Answermtt regs are now saying that it is a +EV decision to open jam ~20bbs deep b/c of blinds and antes.Edit: Kind of what Tehtoe said with Shaun Deeb...he says "if you aren't getting it in behind, your not getting it in enoughI don't know stove very well...do the range values that HighwayStar used include high pairs 1010+? I also think that (and I"m still having some trouble interpreting) villain's assigned calling range is too wide; I think there are a lot more hands calling that dominate us than we dominate.Is there any consideration for our stack size vs if we uber-whiff the flop, having called instead of shoved? I'm coming back to HOHII and what we could do with our remaining stack if we call preflop and c/f a much worse flop, vs shoving with AJ and losing. Link to post Share on other sites
TrueAce13 18 Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I don't know stove very well...do the range values that HighwayStar used include high pairs 1010+? I also think that (and I"m still having some trouble interpreting) villain's assigned calling range is too wide; I think there are a lot more hands calling that dominate us than we dominate.Is there any consideration for our stack size vs if we uber-whiff the flop, having called instead of shoved? I'm coming back to HOHII and what we could do with our remaining stack if we call preflop and c/f a much worse flop, vs shoving with AJ and losing.Yes, the ranges that Highway assigned do include TT+, AQ+. And the range that we are assigning to villain is his initial range (which includes hands that he is folding out). Which gives us the equity to make this a profitable shove all the time. But, at the same time, I think you are giving WAYYYYY too much credit to his range and do believe we are getting called a lot lighter here than what you are thinking Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now