Mongoose6 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Been playin with the guy for 20minutes or so. I had HEM, but then it stopped working, so no help on that front.By my estimation, he has been pretty eratic. 3-betting roughly 20%. He recently 4-bet bluffed my bet on the flop when i had Q-8 on a flop of Qc 7c 6c. I pushed, he insta folded.What im asking is, am i good enough here often enough for a push to be profitable( calling isnt ok right?) or does he have A-x (where x>5) more often.Thanks in advance. Andy.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (2 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comVillain (BB) ($110.15)Hero (SB) ($82.95)Preflop: Hero is SB with A, 5Hero bets $1.50, Villain raises to $5, Hero calls $3.50Flop: ($10) A, 8, 9(2 players)Villain bets $7, Hero calls $7Turn: ($24) J(2 players)Villain bets $22, Hero? Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 HU play is based so much on ebb and flow and betting tendencies and patterns that it is almost impossible for anyone else to properly analyze hands, IMO.I would probably call this bet and call again on most rivers, given an erratic opponent. But, again, see above. Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I don't see why calling is bad at all and is my preferred option here. If we have a guy who is trying to run you over, make thin hands and take them to showdown imo. Obviously there are some terrible river cards we could get that could force us to muck (namely a Q or a 7), but I think I'd rather see you take a passive line here. Link to post Share on other sites
qnshustler 0 Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 HU play is based so much on ebb and flow and betting tendencies and patterns that it is almost impossible for anyone else to properly analyze hands, IMO.+1....it is definitely tough to tell you from an outside perspective. Don't know how you were playing and how he views your play, things like that make a huge difference in HU too. Does anyone raise the flop? I think I might but again it really depends on how the match is playing I suppose. As played I probably call turn and puke/call almost all river bets. Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah, i realise it is hard to analise from this one hand, but all you guys seem to be leaning towards calling this turn bet? Why?Calling leaves us with $46, and a pretty good chance that villain will fire a 3rd bullet regardless of the river.So, if we call, there is countless river cards that would be scary enough for me to fold eg: 7,8,9,10,J,Q,.Heck, most rivers are scary as villains range is so wide.So, say i call.river is 10h. Villain shoves. Hero? Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah, i realise it is hard to analise from this one hand, but all you guys seem to be leaning towards calling this turn bet? Why?Calling leaves us with $46, and a pretty good chance that villain will fire a 3rd bullet regardless of the river. Seems to me you answered your own question Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 call turn for pot control. against crazy opponent heads up with medium strength hands see cheap showdowns so flat turn and reevaluate river. Yes he may fire on many rivers but if you manage the craziness of this hand you can slow the wild variance that may occur when he shows up with a real hand here. If you knew he was being a lunitic donk then stay smart don't fall into the trap that looneys never have hands keep playing smart Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Seems to me you answered your own questionYeah, to be perfectly honest, i think Shove>>Fold>>Call. I just dont know whether its the right thing to do.What do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 call turn for pot control. against crazy opponent heads up with medium strength hands see cheap showdowns so flat turn and reevaluate river. Yes he may fire on many rivers but if you manage the craziness of this hand you can slow the wild variance that may occur when he shows up with a real hand here. If you knew he was being a lunitic donk then stay smart don't fall into the trap that looneys never have hands keep playing smartI understand what your saying, but calling leaves us stranded almost i feel. We still know nothing about the strength of Villains hand. He has shown before he can 4-bet bluff, so a 3rd barrell aint outa the question.This isnt saying that shoving isnt any better tbh. It just stops villain gettin a "free" card.I'm not meaning to be ignorant btw, i just generally feel that shoving is the best, but i wanna know why every single poster has said Call>>Shove here LOLOn a side note i LOVE your pic lol. awesomeness. Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 yes but we are commiting so much of our stack on an overplay, we still have no kicker, of our hand if we shove here thou so in theory it "should" be a -EV play but with this guy we never know so just play small at him until we hit a very nice hand IMO Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 yah my full tilt avatar is same i think it looks like phil ivey plus people just think im black, which is cool seeing how im a ginger Link to post Share on other sites
rrumsey 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 My basic theory is that the good and bad thing about maniacs is that they are crazy and unpredictable so i lean towards safe play until he gifts us a huge pot being a donk Link to post Share on other sites
Temporary Nuts 1 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah, to be perfectly honest, i think Shove>>Fold>>Call. I just dont know whether its the right thing to do.What do you think?Maybe you're not understanding what I'm getting at...We want him to "fire bullets", we don't want to shove over top of him and only keep his value hands along. Shoving is really just turning your hand into a bluff, and it has a lot of value as a catcher.Calling >> Folding >> Shoving Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Temp and Dubey are right here.I just wanted to add that I think you are probably playing pretty poorly against this guy. Why are you 5betting Qx on a Qhigh all club board? Why are you flat calling A5pf here and then not knowing how to proceed on A high flops? You need to know why you are making the decisions you are making.Personally if someone has a 20% or greater 3bet I take my pfr down to a minraise. I also 4bet a lot more. Once you 4bet more and minraise as your opener see how his stats change. Does he call 4bets? If he is calling 4bets, does he play fit or fold on the flop? If he does then 4bet a lot and fire half pot cbets and print money. If he calls 4bets and floats and shit, then only 4bet your value range. If when you minraise he starts to just call a lot then you are going to get top lay pots in position against someone. If he 3bets a lot still then what amount of money is he 3betting to?There are so many things you need to consider with your adjustments to an opponent. Thinking wow he's 3betting a lot I guess I need to call them wider is not a sound adjustment. You should know exactly how you are going to proceed on an A high flop here because that's your effing best case scenario. Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Temp and Dubey are right here.I just wanted to add that I think you are probably playing pretty poorly against this guy. Why are you 5betting Qx on a Qhigh all club board? Why are you flat calling A5pf here and then not knowing how to proceed on A high flops? You need to know why you are making the decisions you are making.Personally if someone has a 20% or greater 3bet I take my pfr down to a minraise. I also 4bet a lot more. Once you 4bet more and minraise as your opener see how his stats change. Does he call 4bets? If he is calling 4bets, does he play fit or fold on the flop? If he does then 4bet a lot and fire half pot cbets and print money. If he calls 4bets and floats and shit, then only 4bet your value range. If when you minraise he starts to just call a lot then you are going to get top lay pots in position against someone. If he 3bets a lot still then what amount of money is he 3betting to?There are so many things you need to consider with your adjustments to an opponent. Thinking wow he's 3betting a lot I guess I need to call them wider is not a sound adjustment. You should know exactly how you are going to proceed on an A high flop here because that's your effing best case scenario.1st off, that hand with a pair of Q's, i 5bet, because he was trying to push me around. I didnt think he had much, and didnt want to flat call, see a possibly scary turn.2ndly, with A5, i honestly figured i was good on the flop. I didnt 4-bet him pf, as i didnt want to see a K-Q-4 flop and fold to a flop bet. I thought i was ahead, and pushed on the turn, cos i thought he had not very much, and didnt want him to outdraw me on the river (wrong decision, very possibly)Thanks for your thoughts though matey. I feel i am very average at 50nl and want to fix some leaks i have.Given my info though, please tell me what YOU would hav done on this hand, on every st pls. (I know its not a lot of info, but you seem very competant, and i would find your help very informative. )Do you play 50nl HU btw? Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 Maybe you're not understanding what I'm getting at...We want him to "fire bullets", we don't want to shove over top of him and only keep his value hands along. Shoving is really just turning your hand into a bluff, and it has a lot of value as a catcher.Calling >> Folding >> Shoving Yeah, thats what i figured, my push does seem like a bluff, so maybe he wouldnt give me credit.The bolded part. Is this how you all feel? Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah, thats what i figured, my push does seem like a bluff, so maybe he wouldnt give me credit.The bolded part. Is this how you all feel?Well, I'd probably say:Calling>>>>>>>shoving>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>folding.I'd say folding would be pretty terrible against this type of opponent. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I play $200nlhu. For the A5 hand I would have minraised pf and folded to his 3bet most of the time. Sometimes I would 4bet as a bluff. Ace-x hands where x is a low card are usually good hands to 4bet bluff because it makes it less likely your opponent is holding an A in his hands. Had I called his reraise (I wouldn't because I'm not excited to be playing flops and getting it in when an A hits) I would call/call/call and try to let him bluff his stack at me because I have the toppest pair and villain is crazy. It's hard to make better than top pair and crazy people don't get me to fold it. Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 I play $200nlhu. For the A5 hand I would have minraised pf and folded to his 3bet most of the time. Sometimes I would 4bet as a bluff. Ace-x hands where x is a low card are usually good hands to 4bet bluff because it makes it less likely your opponent is holding an A in his hands. Had I called his reraise (I wouldn't because I'm not excited to be playing flops and getting it in when an A hits) I would call/call/call and try to let him bluff his stack at me because I have the toppest pair and villain is crazy. It's hard to make better than top pair and crazy people don't get me to fold it.Ok, thanks a lot. Maybe i shoulda called then, on the basis of what everyone here says. Next time, against a similar opponent, i shall just call them :)You can probably guess, i shoved, and he thought for 10/15 seconds, then folded.Skillz. Where do you play, i would love to watch you one time. ( i realise how pervy this sounds lol) Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I play on FT, I've actually been playing only 6max for the past 2 weeks, because HU action has just been so tough to come by. Sucks waiting for 30-45 mins for someone to sit with you. And sucks even more after you wait that long if you lose! :)I don't feel like putting my sn out in the open though, you can PM me for it and watch sometime when I feel like playing. There are like 20 people that I know pretty well that are much better than me at HU though, so it's not a great treat or anything Link to post Share on other sites
Mongoose6 0 Posted July 23, 2009 Author Share Posted July 23, 2009 Well, I'd probably say:Calling>>>>>>>shoving>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>folding.I'd say folding would be pretty terrible against this type of opponent.Yeah. I ruled out folding completely. Tbh i kinda pushed cos i was scared i didnt have the balls to call the river when it, no doubt, came a scare card, which could easily hit villains range(which, might i add, is VERY wide).If you called the turn, would you be calling most rivers, assuming he shoves.If no- what rivers wouldnt you call.Thanks again for your input. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Calling >> Folding >> Shoving Link to post Share on other sites
Dubey 1,035 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Yeah. I ruled out folding completely. Tbh i kinda pushed cos i was scared i didnt have the balls to call the river when it, no doubt, came a scare card, which could easily hit villains range(which, might i add, is VERY wide).If you called the turn, would you be calling most rivers, assuming he shoves.If no- what rivers wouldnt you call.Thanks again for your input.mehh, I'm probably calling all rivers. Link to post Share on other sites
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