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I agree w/Vinny. We like a bet/takeitdown result because, OOP, it's going to be almost impossible, readless, to extract value from villain's range on this board.
To have that result, we have to be way ahead. We want to be way ahead, but betting doesn't cause us to be way ahead.So, I agree with WhatGreatIs.
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OP played his hand very well. He made two minor mistakes in bet sizing. His preflop 3bet should be 1-2bb over pot as standard. I would lean towards making it 2bb+pot. His other mistake was in river sizing where he can probably extract more value if he bets 10 because the difference in villains calling range between 6-10 is relatively small given the action on the earlier streets. Bet/folding the river is the best action.Cbetting the flop is bad for a couple reasons:It's hard to get value from worse. When he cbets he's getting value from a smaller range than when he checks. When he bets he's only getting value from 10x hands and his hand can't stand a raise. There's enough draws on the board where villains will be raising this cbet a decent percentage of the time. By checking, you get more value than betting. A lot of villains will autobet a hand like 88 after you check this flop. It's also very common for a villain to bet AQ. By checking it also prevents us from getting raised off our hand by a draw or a bluff. By checking the flop we can play the turn and river easier. When you bet this flop and your called, it puts you in a very bad spot for the turn/river where you will frequently be guessing. When you check flop and he checks back, you can ussually get two streets of value from worse on non-over turns/rivers. This will depend highly on villains calling tendencies. Going for one street of value here, like the OP did, is also fine. But when he only goes for one street he should make his valuebet a little closer to pot.
so if i'm reading this correctly your saying check flop and if villian bets call all 3 streets if they are bet? cause that sounds ludacris. villian can easily double barrel a wide variety with a b/f mentality. we'll be playing for stacks by the river. totally on board with this being an mucccccccccccccccch easier hand if it goes check/check on the flop.i don't think there's a right answer to this hand
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so if i'm reading this correctly your saying check flop and if villian bets call all 3 streets if they are bet? cause that sounds ludacris. villian can easily double barrel a wide variety with a b/f mentality. we'll be playing for stacks by the river. totally on board with this being an mucccccccccccccccch easier hand if it goes check/check on the flop.i don't think there's a right answer to this hand
I don't think what is saying that. Since you're checking your entire range on this flop, sometimes you'll have a very strong made hand (e.g. KK,AK) so you could check/call all three streets if villain barreled you. With JJ, it'd be villain dependent on how many streets you would c/c.
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I don't think what is saying that. Since you're checking your entire range on this flop, sometimes you'll have a very strong made hand (e.g. KK,AK) so you could check/call all three streets if villain barreled you. With JJ, it'd be villain dependent on how many streets you would c/c.
+1
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so if i'm reading this correctly your saying check flop and if villian bets call all 3 streets if they are bet? cause that sounds ludacris. villian can easily double barrel a wide variety with a b/f mentality. we'll be playing for stacks by the river. totally on board with this being an mucccccccccccccccch easier hand if it goes check/check on the flop.i don't think there's a right answer to this hand
If they bet you typically call two streets and then play poker and make a read on what to do on the river. And yeah, you typically play for stacks in 3bet pots. You need to get comfortable with stacking off light sometimes.Yes, there is a right answer to this hand and I just gave it to you.
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I don't think what is saying that. Since you're checking your entire range on this flop, sometimes you'll have a very strong made hand (e.g. KK,AK) so you could check/call all three streets if villain barreled you. With JJ, it'd be villain dependent on how many streets you would c/c.
+1
I'm pretty sure he isn't checking his entire range on this board. This is a pretty bad board to be checking to trap imo. If we could value bet against a K, then betting would be better than checking, but since JJ obv can't do that checking is better. If we had AK we'd bet because overcards would call, we'd have tptk and be willing to stack and we'd be giving flush draws a bad price.Edit: to balance our checking range of like pocket pairs with showdown value, I'd c/r gutshots with over cards and flush draws. We'd cbet with complete air, or really small pps that we are going to go 3 streets with and turn into bluffs to balance with our sets, AK, KK, AA
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I don't hate the 3-bet size because it probably accomplishes the goal of weeding out the stone could first in bluffs but because 3 peels the turn, a none scary card because I don't put him on A3 suited or 33 I think a probe bet looks like some sort of K and probably wins the pot if he was drawing to a flush and could insure a check behind if the flush misses. Also, the river bet was kind of small because it just looks like a weak play so that leads me to think villian was just punishing what he saw a weak attempt at winning the hand. IDK weird hand would love to know what villian truly had.

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oh and c-bet would have been ok too but i see why you checked.

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OP played his hand very well. He made two minor mistakes in bet sizing. His preflop 3bet should be 1-2bb over pot as standard. I would lean towards making it 2bb+pot. His other mistake was in river sizing where he can probably extract more value if he bets 10 because the difference in villains calling range between 6-10 is relatively small given the action on the earlier streets. Bet/folding the river is the best action.Cbetting the flop is bad for a couple reasons:It's hard to get value from worse. When he cbets he's getting value from a smaller range than when he checks. When he bets he's only getting value from 10x hands and his hand can't stand a raise. There's enough draws on the board where villains will be raising this cbet a decent percentage of the time. By checking, you get more value than betting. A lot of villains will autobet a hand like 88 after you check this flop. It's also very common for a villain to bet AQ. By checking it also prevents us from getting raised off our hand by a draw or a bluff. By checking the flop we can play the turn and river easier. When you bet this flop and your called, it puts you in a very bad spot for the turn/river where you will frequently be guessing. When you check flop and he checks back, you can ussually get two streets of value from worse on non-over turns/rivers. This will depend highly on villains calling tendencies. Going for one street of value here, like the OP did, is also fine. But when he only goes for one street he should make his valuebet a little closer to pot.
Idk about you c-bet theory because we have a bit of folding equity with 10's, Q's will probably fold. Yes it ios hard to get a ton of value from this hand but if we c-bet flop, check turn, bet river we probably take it down because of all the draws folding. If he spiked a set or a boat we are screwed but we let free cards come off on a draw heavy flop I just don't like that.
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Idk about you c-bet theory because we have a bit of folding equity with 10's, Q's will probably fold. Yes it ios hard to get a ton of value from this hand but if we c-bet flop, check turn, bet river we probably take it down because of all the draws folding. If he spiked a set or a boat we are screwed but we let free cards come off on a draw heavy flop I just don't like that.
:club:
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i don't stack off light
Agreed. I seriously think that was a dumb concept, get used to stacking off light? I am coming to grips with the fact, that there may be no "right" way to play this hand, and a lot of that had to do with whatgreatis's thoughts about getting extra value from the hand. I still think c/b is my way of playing it, because I feel more comfortable not guessing and get the easiest value... But... I did not take JJ into a pot three-bet preflop, OOP, and say "boy, theres a king, I better get in 'stack off light' mode"
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I understand that people want to be cautious but I haven't heard anyone talk about protecting our hand yet, what gives? I know there are better NL cash players than me here so maybe someone can explain it to me. The logic isn't quite registering in my thick head yet. :)IMO You are ahead of a lot of the caller's range (AQ-A10, QJ, 99 + other random pockets etc) and checking down gives the villain a chance to catch up for free. AK is really the only hand I'm afraid of. My instinct wants me to protect my hand and bet. I dunno, I'm probably way off here and not thinking this thru enough but regardless great thread. Are you checking the flop because you are scared of being check raised with hands in his range you're ahead of? I don't like playing scared, i like to take initiative and bet. Can someone explain why betting is -EV?

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Agreed. I seriously think that was a dumb concept, get used to stacking off light? I am coming to grips with the fact, that there may be no "right" way to play this hand, and a lot of that had to do with whatgreatis's thoughts about getting extra value from the hand. I still think c/b is my way of playing it, because I feel more comfortable not guessing and get the easiest value... But... I did not take JJ into a pot three-bet preflop, OOP, and say "boy, theres a king, I better get in 'stack off light' mode"
There's a right way to play this hand. It is checking the flop and calling. Ryan wasn't saying you hafta stack off light and trap with JJ, the point was, what is villain's range to bet flop, bet turn, bet river. He's repping some really narrow shit with that line. When people rep very narrow ranges on drawy boards, well it's usually a call but it's villain dependent. You're not always calling off here, you aren't usually calling off here, but it has to be a possibility.The only think betting JJ here does is make the hand easier to play, but it makes it less +EV to play. Until you start putting yourself in uncomfortable situations where you have to think about what villain is repping and how his bet sizing correlates with it, you won't improve by just waiting for big mistakes. These are little spots that make a dramatic difference in your development as a player.The EV between betting here and c/c a few streets is probably small. It's the concept behind it that makes it really big.
I understand that people want to be cautious but I haven't heard anyone talk about protecting our hand yet, what gives? I know there are better NL cash players than me here so maybe someone can explain it to me. The logic isn't quite registering in my thick head yet. :)IMO You are ahead of a lot of the caller's range (AQ-A10, QJ, 99 + other random pockets etc) and checking down gives the villain a chance to catch up for free.
I tried to cover this earlier, but maybe I didn't write it well or you disagree. Betting for protection is kind of whack in the first place, but we have to do it sometimes. We have 55 on a K826 board, sometimes we're betting the turn here (if we checked flop) for protection against any over card to a 5 that wouldn't call a bet or bluff, so no reason to let him draw for free.In this hand we have JJ on a KTx two spade board and we're OOP in a 3bet pot. What kinds of hands do we bet for protection against? Over cards that won't bluff and won't call with worse. Every overcard combo in villains 3bet calling range has either top pair, middle pair, straight draw, or gutshot + over cards. We aren't folding anything by betting. He's literally calling with all of those hands, so we didn't protect against anything. All we did was fold the very bottom of his range which was air. That's never a good result, we want his range to be as weak as possible in this situation.
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Agree with everything tskillz and whatgreatis wrote in this thread.Vinny, and other supporters of the c-bet, can we agree that we are ahead a lot of the time on the flop here? Ok, now, given the times that we are ahead, think of all the scenarios that can occur if we bet the flop. Compare that with the scenarios that can happen if we check the flop.i think you will find that checking puts us in a lot more 'favourable' situations than betting does.also, since this is a big pot, any mistake we make is amplified. Betting makes it a lot more likely that we will make a huge mistake in this hand (folding the winning hand)

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I tried to cover this earlier, but maybe I didn't write it well or you disagree. Betting for protection is kind of whack in the first place, but we have to do it sometimes. We have 55 on a K826 board, sometimes we're betting the turn here (if we checked flop) for protection against any over card to a 5 that wouldn't call a bet or bluff, so no reason to let him draw for free.In this hand we have JJ on a KTx two spade board and we're OOP in a 3bet pot. What kinds of hands do we bet for protection against? Over cards that won't bluff and won't call with worse. Every overcard combo in villains 3bet calling range has either top pair, middle pair, straight draw, or gutshot + over cards. We aren't folding anything by betting. He's literally calling with all of those hands, so we didn't protect against anything. All we did was fold the very bottom of his range which was air. That's never a good result, we want his range to be as weak as possible in this situation.
Okay I see your point a little better, thank you for reitterating it for me. If you think all of those hands are coming along then I can see why you wouldn't want to put more money in the pot. Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.
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Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.
lol flawed thinking.
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Honestly?? Maybe the players who are checking, and getting all this thin value by the river from the villian's range, are just better at poker then me. Maybe its less +EV for you, but for me if I don't bet the flop I don't know what the hell I'm doing so it's the right play with my current poker skill. I just can't believe that you guys really play a hand like this and get several streets of value from all these mid pocket pairs, and AT which just keep betting at you (and bets we keep calling) more often then you just lose a big pot to a bigger pair or AK or something playing that way, a hand that would actually call a three-bet and keep firing.

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lol flawed thinking.
That's why I'm here. :club: I like your guy's line I just don't think I ever play it like that. It's def making me question my thinking.
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That's why I'm here. :club: I like your guy's line I just don't think I ever play it like that. It's def making me question my thinking.
Good. Thinking about the game all the time, and ways to improve is good. I question my thinking all the time. I'm going to point out what/why was flawed with your statement. Please think about what I am writing a lot because its a big deal.
Okay I see your point a little better, thank you for reitterating it for me. If you think all of those hands are coming along then I can see why you wouldn't want to put more money in the pot. Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.
The bolded is very flawed. When you say "I want to grab this nice pot right now" you're implying that your playing the hand as a bluff off the flop, which you def should not be. It implys that you think about taking the pot right away before you can get sucked out on, or whatever and not how to play each hand to show the highest expectation. You should start trying to break down villains ranges and how each part of his range will react to different bets. When you can do that effectively, poker is a ez game.
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Good. Thinking about the game all the time, and ways to improve is good. I question my thinking all the time. I'm going to point out what/why was flawed with your statement. Please think about what I am writing a lot because its a big deal.The bolded is very flawed. When you say "I want to grab this nice pot right now" you're implying that your playing the hand as a bluff off the flop, which you def should not be. It implys that you think about taking the pot right away before you can get sucked out on, or whatever and not how to play each hand to show the highest expectation. You should start trying to break down villains ranges and how each part of his range will react to different bets. When you can do that effectively, poker is a ez game.
Good stuff, thanks man! The bolded is great advice but def easier said than done. I always break down ranges in tourney poker well but I don't think I know how to as well in cash yet. I def got your point tho, i def wasn't thinking in terms of highest expectation but simply how not to get sucked out on, lol. It makes more sense now, thanks again!
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Good stuff, thanks man! The bolded is great advice but def easier said than done. I always break down ranges in tourney poker well but I don't think I know how to as well in cash yet. I def got your point tho, i def wasn't thinking in terms of highest expectation but simply how not to get sucked out on, lol. It makes more sense now, thanks again!
When you stop doing this, the whole game opens up to you.
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