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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($41.30)UTG ($60.95)MP ($63.20)CO ($75.70)Button ($10.20)Hero (SB) ($50)Preflop: Hero is SB with Jheart.gif, Jclub.gif2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, CO calls $4.50Flop: ($13.50) Kdiamond.gif, 10spade.gif, 3spade.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksTurn: ($13.50) 3heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: ($13.50) 9heart.gif(2 players)Hero bets $6, CO raises to $25.50, Hero foldsTotal pot: $25.50 | Rake: $1.05I think I played this bad. In hindsight I probably should have raised a bit more OOP and maybe bet on the flop.

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Yeah you should make it like $7-8 I lean towards bigger 3bets because I don't make a lot of them. Why do you think you played it badly post flop? Just curious as to your reasoning, not saying you did or didn't.

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($41.30)UTG ($60.95)MP ($63.20)CO ($75.70)Button ($10.20)Hero (SB) ($50)Preflop: Hero is SB with Jheart.gif, Jclub.gif2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, CO calls $4.50Flop: ($13.50) Kdiamond.gif, 10spade.gif, 3spade.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksTurn: ($13.50) 3heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: ($13.50) 9heart.gif(2 players)Hero bets $6, CO raises to $25.50, Hero foldsTotal pot: $25.50 | Rake: $1.05I think I played this bad. In hindsight I probably should have raised a bit more OOP and maybe bet on the flop.
well you definitely could have played it a little better... but like you said it's all in hindsight. just stuff to remember for future hands
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well you definitely could have played it a little better... but like you said it's all in hindsight. just stuff to remember for future hands
Like what? Let's be specific, it is a strat forum, these posts are a little vague.
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i think 3-bet size is fine but 7-8 would be cool as welli don't think this hand is played too badly. I would just b/f flop or turn for that matter. this hand really gets tricky if you bet flop and are called though..

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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($41.30)UTG ($60.95)MP ($63.20)CO ($75.70)Button ($10.20)Hero (SB) ($50)Preflop: Hero is SB with Jheart.gif, Jclub.gif2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, CO calls $4.50Flop: ($13.50) Kdiamond.gif, 10spade.gif, 3spade.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksTurn: ($13.50) 3heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: ($13.50) 9heart.gif(2 players)Hero bets $6, CO raises to $25.50, Hero foldsTotal pot: $25.50 | Rake: $1.05I think I played this bad. In hindsight I probably should have raised a bit more OOP and maybe bet on the flop.
I don't think the PF raise is that bad. Could have been more. CBet is almost required on the flop though. I don't know what he went ape with on the river, but I think we can fold unless we have notes on him being a complete monkey.
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Definitely +1 for b/f flop. And then again as played I b/f turn. You played the river correct based on how you got there. I know it's unwise to put a villain on one specific holding, but this basically screams 99 (or QJ if he calls 3bets loose)

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I Actually don't hate just checking it down here. Betting flop or turn puts us in a sticky situation if we are called, and we will likely have to fold on later streets, so we are essentially bluffing if we bet. As played, I think I check the river too, and here's why:his reasonable range to call a river bet here (that we beat) is: AT, QT, JT, and possibly 44-88. This is pretty narrow, and I'm not even sure we'll get a call from 44-88. If we think he'll hero call with A high, then we should value bet.As well, even passive opponents will feel inclined to bluff sometimes when checked to on 3 streets, so i think checking and calling a bet is a reasonable line. It is close though, it depends a lot on the opponent

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Betting flop puts us in a sticky situation if we are called, and we will likely have to fold on later streets,
How do people that want to c-bet flop respond to this?
so we are essentially bluffing if we bet.
Not quite, our hand does beat most of his calling range, so it's not a bluff, it's a value bet.
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How do people that want to c-bet flop respond to this?
in all honesty idki can't come up with an optimum line. i feel we have to know our opponent i don't know if there can be a standard line vs an unknown. i mean we did three bet pf and our hand def has value. the c-bet at least creates some fe in a 3-bet pot. idk i'm stumped on this one. if called at least we can assign ranges which would def include spades, js.
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I think Ryan will probably come up with a better line or reasoning than I can, but he's apparently high or passed out or something.I'm against betting the flop. I'm slightly against betting the turn, but could possibly be swayed, but I think it's prob a little bad w/o knowing villain is a station puss that won't bluff river.I think betting river is quite a bit better than c/c river because you can prob value bet any pocket pair by that point and definitely hands like 9x and Tx. The river bet should be a little bigger just cuz it's a blocking value bet, and this one is prob a little too small and almost invites some villains to raise. I'd bet river at like $8.Overall I thought the way he played the hand was correct on every street just that his pf raise sizing and river raise sizing were bad. I think villain also shows up with 99/QJ here a tonnnnnn.More importantly, this hand illustrates why being OOP sucks balls and why you should make your pf reraises OOP very big to make people pay for playing weaker hands against you, because they are going to be able to put you in bad spots so often and even though villain literally did nothing in this hand the board puts us in a bad position often too.Edit: Also to OP, I'm wondering why you thought you played it bad? Just because you get a bad result doesn't mean you played it poorly, that's obv results based thinking.

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in all honesty idki can't come up with an optimum line. i feel we have to know our opponent i don't know if there can be a standard line vs an unknown. i mean we did three bet pf and our hand def has value. the c-bet at least creates some fe in a 3-bet pot. idk i'm stumped on this one. if called at least we can assign ranges which would def include spades, js.
You have to c/b flop, along the lines of 8.00, to have any clue where we are in this hand. We are looking for fold equity with that bet, if we are called, I just give up and hope for a cheap showdown, and if we are raised, I fold. I play this hand pretty black and white myself. The way you played the hand, and the small bet size on the river, I am re-raising you with missed AQ's and the like all day long. You must have bet the river as a blocking bet, so you wouldn't have to call more if he bet, to see if you are good.. but in honesty, the bet is so small that it asks for you to get played back at more then if you checked. you three-bet, he calls, a King and Ten flop, you bet... he calls/raises...his range crushes us (we're really only ahead of AQs, and smaller pocket pairs, that are never gonna bet again anyways). If we don't bet there, we never know what his range is, I almost wanna call river as played. Oh and someone said JQ is in his range, well first, that is a really loose player to call the three-bet and secondly, we got two of his jacks.. nope..
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How do people that want to c-bet flop respond to this?
I'm going to check-fold turn, as gross as that may sound. But the reason is, I'm check-shoving AK, AA, sets and check calling when I've spazzed and "accidentally" 3bet KQ oop.If it checks through to the river I'll look up a smaller sized bet depending on opponent.The other thing is, I don't see people making too many heroic bluffs in 3bet pots at micros, and FDs like to take free cards when so much money is in the pot quite often.Personally I like the 3-bet size he makes here.
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I'm going to check-fold turn, as gross as that may sound. But the reason is, I'm check-shoving AK, AA, sets and check calling when I've spazzed and "accidentally" 3bet KQ oop.If it checks through to the river I'll look up a smaller sized bet depending on opponent.The other thing is, I don't see people making too many heroic bluffs in 3bet pots at micros, and FDs like to take free cards when so much money is in the pot quite often.Personally I like the 3-bet size he makes here.
I think this post is a good reason why cbetting here is pretty bad. We can only win the hand if he doesn't bet again and called us with a worse hand. If we are calling some river bets that makes it even tougher, cuz we're just in a complete guessing game on his bluffing frequency. Also, why would you ever check with AA, AK, sets and stuff when you're next point is that people won't bluff in 3bet pots and will take free cards with a flush draw? That makes checking the turn reallllllllllllly bad.
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Also Vinny, what do you mean we're looking for fold equity with that bet? We aren't bluffing, we aren't semi-bluffing, we aren't betting for protection (because he never folds over cards with his overcard + gutshot draw. The cbet is folding only hands that we crush and getting calls from hands that either beat us or have good equity against us and also Tx hands. We can get a street of value from Tx hands on any street of our choosing, the flop seems like the worst one to try because he may bet later.

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I think this post is a good reason why cbetting here is pretty bad. We can only win the hand if he doesn't bet again and called us with a worse hand. If we are calling some river bets that makes it even tougher, cuz we're just in a complete guessing game on his bluffing frequency. Also, why would you ever check with AA, AK, sets and stuff when you're next point is that people won't bluff in 3bet pots and will take free cards with a flush draw? That makes checking the turn reallllllllllllly bad.
So your argument is that we don't c/b because it puts us in a complete guessing game against bluffs? Excuse me? If anything it gives us waaay more information. I have to put in that 8 dollars on the flop, to know what to do the rest of the hand. If you don't bet the 8 on the flop, you are going to be putting in a whole lot more guessing the rest of the way possibly calling his bets. Checking the turn is bad when? Are you saying its bad to check after a c/b is called? I don't think it is at all, I am not putting in anymore money with JJ there if I am called on the flop, maybe I am a nit.
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Also Vinny, what do you mean we're looking for fold equity with that bet? We aren't bluffing, we aren't semi-bluffing, we aren't betting for protection (because he never folds over cards with his overcard + gutshot draw. The cbet is folding only hands that we crush and getting calls from hands that either beat us or have good equity against us and also Tx hands. We can get a street of value from Tx hands on any street of our choosing, the flop seems like the worst one to try because he may bet later.
Didn't see the second post. Okay, well is fold equity the wrong word? Let's just say, we don't mind ending the hand here, and he folds here a decent amount of time here. I think the value in this hand is the current pot, not future streets, and that could really be bad poker thinking I have. It's more of an information bet that I have to make, because if we don't bet, he bets like ten, and we have no clue what we are calling with for more money. I really am prepared to win this hand two ways at this point...a) take it down with the flop bet, B) a cheap showdown after the flop bet, I just personally think this is the right way to play against a no-reads player's three-bet call range, with Jacks and a K on board..
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I agree w/Vinny. We like a bet/takeitdown result because, OOP, it's going to be almost impossible, readless, to extract value from villain's range on this board. When we check otf, he can value bet us w/better; he can double or even triple barrel us w/worse - if we bet and he raises, we obv have to fold, and if we bet and he calls then we're unable to get more value from worse pairs, but we're always put in tough spots when facing pressure, from better hands or hands like AQ...Bottom line is that, unless we can godmode it and turn a jack, EVERY line is going to suck in some way. Bet/fold and c/c are both fine IMO so long as you don't get too invested in the hand (again, assuming you don't go IDQQD on this bitch)Open folding looks attractive, metagame

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but we're always put in tough spots when facing pressure, from better hands or hands like AQ...Bottom line is that, unless we can godmode it and turn a jack, EVERY line is going to suck in some way.
haha even a Jack could suck...... but yes, I think this is just the most comfortable way to play the hand... I just don't see value anywhere else without some hero call you shouldn't really have the reads to make
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Ima let whatgreatis post his thoughts after he finishes his sesh up, I'm not sure what he thinks is optimal, but the way I'm explaining what I believe is the correct play might not be coming off as eloquently as it should. All I do know is when I showed him the HH is he wrote "cbetting is horrible" as soon as he read it.But a few more things, by checking instead of cbetting villain can bet anything in his range, this is good because we can beat his bluffs and his weaker value bets. By betting he is folding his complete air, so we lose the biggest part of his range that we are ahead of.Betting to take it down now is not a winning strategy. It's betting for information. Don't bet for information. The only times we really "bet for protection" are when we have a weak pocket pair that wants overcards to fold or call with the wrong price, so we bet because we don't want them to check behind and get there for free. In this case, villain is never folding over cards because of the board, not only is he not folding over cards on the flop he is likely to turn those into bluffs if the pot gets bigger.

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I think Ryan will probably come up with a better line or reasoning than I can, but he's apparently high or passed out or something.I'm against betting the flop. I'm slightly against betting the turn, but could possibly be swayed, but I think it's prob a little bad w/o knowing villain is a station puss that won't bluff river.I think betting river is quite a bit better than c/c river because you can prob value bet any pocket pair by that point and definitely hands like 9x and Tx. The river bet should be a little bigger just cuz it's a blocking value bet, and this one is prob a little too small and almost invites some villains to raise. I'd bet river at like $8.Overall I thought the way he played the hand was correct on every street just that his pf raise sizing and river raise sizing were bad. I think villain also shows up with 99/QJ here a tonnnnnn.More importantly, this hand illustrates why being OOP sucks balls and why you should make your pf reraises OOP very big to make people pay for playing weaker hands against you, because they are going to be able to put you in bad spots so often and even though villain literally did nothing in this hand the board puts us in a bad position often too.Edit: I agree, I didn't want to bet for information on the flop, only get called and be just as lost. Hell, people can float there with A high.Edit: Also to OP, I'm wondering why you thought you played it bad? Just because you get a bad result doesn't mean you played it poorly, that's obv results based thinking.
I think it is partially because I lost (I hate losing). Honestly, I usually do bet this flop and shut down if he calls, but I thought about it after the flop came out and figured that he could easily call me with a 10 or QJ or AQ or a K or a FD and I would have to check the turn and fold or make a call on the river to win. When he raised me on the river I asked, "Why would you do that when it's obvious I have KK?" Unfortunately, he didn't respond. That raise on the river, at these limits, is almost never bluff. I do agree, I should have bet more on the river. After I bet I thought it was really obvious that it was a blocker bet - but maybe it was just obvious because I made it.So, to answer your question: I really hated playing this hand because I had no idea what he had, and I just didn't know what to do. So, maybe I didn't play it bad, but I'm definitely flaky in these spots. I should have made it like $7.50 preflop. Do you think it's every ok to flat call in the blinds and then lead the flop? I feel like it would be the same scenario, but it would keep the pot smaller at least.Edit: I agree, I didn't want to just bet for information on the flop only to get called and still be lost in the hand.
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Ima let whatgreatis post his thoughts after he finishes his sesh up, I'm not sure what he thinks is optimal, but the way I'm explaining what I believe is the correct play might not be coming off as eloquently as it should. All I do know is when I showed him the HH is he wrote "cbetting is horrible" as soon as he read it.But a few more things, by checking instead of cbetting villain can bet anything in his range, this is good because we can beat his bluffs and his weaker value bets. By betting he is folding his complete air, so we lose the biggest part of his range that we are ahead of.Betting to take it down now is not a winning strategy. It's betting for information. Don't bet for information. The only times we really "bet for protection" are when we have a weak pocket pair that wants overcards to fold or call with the wrong price, so we bet because we don't want them to check behind and get there for free. In this case, villain is never folding over cards because of the board, not only is he not folding over cards on the flop he is likely to turn those into bluffs if the pot gets bigger.
I like this, and I definitely see the value in itI know I get a little terrified in gray areas oop, but this is good stuff, so thanks
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Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comBB ($41.30)UTG ($60.95)MP ($63.20)CO ($75.70)Button ($10.20)Hero (SB) ($50)Preflop: Hero is SB with Jheart.gif, Jclub.gif2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, CO calls $4.50Flop: ($13.50) Kdiamond.gif, 10spade.gif, 3spade.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksTurn: ($13.50) 3heart.gif(2 players)Hero checks, CO checksRiver: ($13.50) 9heart.gif(2 players)Hero bets $6, CO raises to $25.50, Hero foldsTotal pot: $25.50 | Rake: $1.05I think I played this bad. In hindsight I probably should have raised a bit more OOP and maybe bet on the flop.
OP played his hand very well. He made two minor mistakes in bet sizing. His preflop 3bet should be 1-2bb over pot as standard. I would lean towards making it 2bb+pot. His other mistake was in river sizing where he can probably extract more value if he bets 10 because the difference in villains calling range between 6-10 is relatively small given the action on the earlier streets. Bet/folding the river is the best action.Cbetting the flop is bad for a couple reasons:It's hard to get value from worse. When he cbets he's getting value from a smaller range than when he checks. When he bets he's only getting value from 10x hands and his hand can't stand a raise. There's enough draws on the board where villains will be raising this cbet a decent percentage of the time. By checking, you get more value than betting. A lot of villains will autobet a hand like 88 after you check this flop. It's also very common for a villain to bet AQ. By checking it also prevents us from getting raised off our hand by a draw or a bluff. By checking the flop we can play the turn and river easier. When you bet this flop and your called, it puts you in a very bad spot for the turn/river where you will frequently be guessing. When you check flop and he checks back, you can ussually get two streets of value from worse on non-over turns/rivers. This will depend highly on villains calling tendencies. Going for one street of value here, like the OP did, is also fine. But when he only goes for one street he should make his valuebet a little closer to pot.
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