Oldest Known Bible Online

[solderz 0]

How do you interpret the fact that the oldest version of the bible fails to mention the resurrection of your savior in its entirety? Seems like a fairly large omission. Obviously the church hadn't been trying to sell the whole resurrection thing until later in its life, at which point it was added.For those of you who choose to believe, how do you interpret this information? Do you suddenly stop believing in the resurrection? Or maybe you start to believe god is fallible and simply made a mistake on this early copy, correcting it later?I have to understand how so many can believe, when things like this make it seem like believers are completely nanners.News Story on 1600 year old bible

[HubDub04 0]

Crazy

[crowTrobot 2]

if christians were somehow able to get past the brainwashing lies and apologist propaganda and learn what objective scholars really know about the origin of the bible their heads would explode.

[Plus one 0]

How do you interpret the fact that the oldest version of the bible fails to mention the resurrection of your savior in its entirety? Seems like a fairly large omission. Obviously the church hadn't been trying to sell the whole resurrection thing until later in its life, at which point it was added.For those of you who choose to believe, how do you interpret this information? Do you suddenly stop believing in the resurrection? Or maybe you start to believe god is fallible and simply made a mistake on this early copy, correcting it later?I have to understand how so many can believe, when things like this make it seem like believers are completely nanners.News Story on 1600 year old bible

Are you saying then that you believe thuis version?

[SuitedAces21 2,729]

where's brvhrt to claim that the bible is unchanged for 2000 years and nothing in it can be disproven?

[Balloon guy 158]

if christians were somehow able to get past the brainwashing lies and apologist propaganda and learn what objective scholars really know about the origin of the bible their heads would explode.

This is laughable.Textual critism is probably the single greatest scientific strength in Christian apologetics today.There is so much information, which has been cross matched and reaffirmed and every single turn of the archeologist spade reveals greatest affirmation in the authenticity of what we have being the original writings of the NT.When the dead sea scrolls were found, they had a copy of Isaiah 800 years older than any other copy. It had 2 names spelling differences and maybe one or two odd words misplaced. With an 800 year old gap.We can reconstruct 95% of the New Testament just from letters of church leaders where they quote the NT. We have over 10,000 ancient copies.The fact that you even suspect that there is anything but near perfection in the detailed assurance of today's Bible and it's translations shows that you know almost nothing about textual critism.Maybe you shouldn't get your information from sources like Dawkins who also don't know anything about textual critism.Or at least stop trying to infer that you have special knowledge about a subject that you are completely ignorant of.

[vbnautilus 49]

The important question is, what does this version say about what age to slaughter oxen? The possibility that we've been doing this wrong this whole time is astonishing. I'm glad someone finally found the original sheep herding manual, we've been out here flailing about like the Greatest American Hero without his flight-suit guide. We might also finally put to rest the issue of whether or not to eat water-living creatures that don't have scales and fins. What a relief!

[Balloon guy 158]

How do you interpret the fact that the oldest version of the bible fails to mention the resurrection of your savior in its entirety? Seems like a fairly large omission. Obviously the church hadn't been trying to sell the whole resurrection thing until later in its life, at which point it was added.For those of you who choose to believe, how do you interpret this information? Do you suddenly stop believing in the resurrection? Or maybe you start to believe god is fallible and simply made a mistake on this early copy, correcting it later?I have to understand how so many can believe, when things like this make it seem like believers are completely nanners.News Story on 1600 year old bible

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you want an answer.This is just one of the older copies of a near complete Bible, although they added some of the books not found in today's Bible, We have copies a hundred years older of an almost complete NT, and we have individual copies of the individual letters that are as old as 1900 years old. So if a 'newer' version is missing some of the things the older version has..why would you think this is a big deal?The NT was largely a series of letters written by the Apostles to the first churches, much later they were assembled together in order to stop the influx of 'new' letters that were starting to be passed around as authentic, but in fact were not. An old Bible would be very similar to finding a complete set of Shakespear's books. They stand alone, the collection is just the collection of them.

[BaseJester 1]

To be clear, the resurrection isn't missing from all the books.Here's the last bit of John from the Codex Sinaiticus site:

20:1 But on the first of the week, Mary Magdalene comes to the sepulcher early, it being yet dark, and sees the stone taken away from the sepulcher.2 She therefore runs and comes to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and says to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him.3 Thereupon Peter went forth and the other disciple, and came to the sepulcher.4 But the two ran together; and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the sepulcher;5 and having stooped down, he saw the linen cloths lying: however he went not in.6 Then comes Simon Peter following him; and he went into the sepulcher, and saw the linen cloths lying,7 and the handkerchief, which was on his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a place by itself.8 Therefore, the other disciple also that came first to the sepulcher then went in, and saw and believed;9 for they not yet knew the scripture, that he must rise from the dead.10 The disciples then went away again to their homes.11 But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping. Then as she wept, she stooped down and looked into the sepulcher,12 and saw two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.13 They say to her: Woman, why weepest thou? She says to them: They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. Having said these things, she turned back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.15 Jesus says to her: Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing that he was the gardener, says to him: Sir, if thou hast borne him away, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.16 Jesus said to her: Mary. She turned and said to him in Hebrew: Rabboni, which is called, Teacher.17 Jesus says to her: Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them: I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.18 Mary Magdalene comes and tells the disciples: I have seen the Lord; and that he had said these things to her.19 When therefore evening had come on that day, the first of the week, and the doors had been closed where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace to you.20 And having said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Thereupon the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.21 He then said to them again: Peace to you; as the Father has sent me, I also send you.22 And having said this, he breathed on them and said to them: Receive the Holy Spirit.23 Whosesoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven them; whosesoever sins you retain, they are retained.24 But Thomas, who is called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace to you.27 Then he says to Thomas: Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands, and reach thy hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but believing.28 Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.29 Jesus says to him: Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that, though not seeing, have yet believed.30 Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book;31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life in his name.21:1 After these things Jesus manifested himself to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias: and he manifested himself thus.

[Spademan 94]

Wait, does it take back that I can't hurt my slaves teeth when I beat them?I like that God allows me to keep slaves and beat them, but I don't like shying away from the mouth.

[BaseJester 1]

Luke 24 looks the same.

24:1 But on the first of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulcher, bringing the spices that they had prepared.2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher;3 but entering, they found not the body of the Lord Jesus.4 And it came to pass as they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in bright clothing5 and the women being afraid and bowing their faces to the earth the angels said to them: Why see among the dead for him that lives?6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galilee,7 saying of the Son of man that he must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and rise on the third day.8 And they remembered his words,9 and returned from the sepulcher and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.10 And they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; and the rest with them told these things to the apostles.11 And these words appeared in their sight as idle tales, and they believed them not.12 But Peter arose and ran to the sepulcher, and stooping down, he saw the linen clothes lying by themselves; and he departed, wondering in himself at that which had come to pass.13 And behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village named Emmaus, distant from Jerusalem sixty furlongs;14 and they were conversing one with another about all these things that had happened.15 And it came to pass while they were conversing and discussing, Jesus himself came near and went with them;16 but their eyes were held so that they did not know him.17 And he said to them: What matters are these that you interchange one with another as you walk? And they stood still with countenances sad.18 But one, whose name was Cleopas, answering, said to him: Dost thou only dwell as a stranger in Jerusalem and hast not known the things that have come to pass in it in these days?19 And he said to them: What things? And they said to him: The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who became a man, a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him up to the condemnation of death and crucified him.21 But we were hoping that it had been he that was about to redeem Israel. Yet even with all this, this is the third day since these things were done.22 But also some women of our company astonished us; having been early at the sepulcher,23 and not finding his body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24:23 and not finding his body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.24 And some of those with us went to the sepulcher, and found it so even as the women had said, but him they saw not.25 And he said to them: O without understanding, and slow of heart to believe in all things that the prophets have spoken.26 Was it not needful that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.28 And they drew near to the village whither they were going, and he made a show of going further;29 and they constrained him, saying: Abide with us; for it is toward evening, and the day has now declined. And he went in to abide with them.30 And it came to pass as he reclined at table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke and gave to them;31 but their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.32 And they said one to another: Was not our heart burning within us, as he spoke to us on the way, as he opened to us the scriptures?33 And they rose up the same hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those with them collected together,34 saying that the Lord has certainly risen and has appeared to Simon.35 And they told what had taken place on the way, and how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread.36 But while they were talking of these things, he himself stood in the midst of them.37 And being terrified and becoming fearful, they thought that they saw a spirit.38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have.40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.41 But while they believed not for joy, and wondered, he said to them: Have you anything here to eat?42 And they gave him a piece of broiled fish;43 and he took it and ate in their presence.44 And he said to them: These are my words, which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things that are written in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms concerning me must be fulfilled.45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures;46 and he said to them: Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.48 You are witnesses of these things.49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do you continue in the city, till you be clothed with power from on high.50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them.51 And it came to pass, as he blessed them, he was separated from them.52 And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,53 and were continually in the temple praising God.

1: Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.2: And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.3: And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.4: And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:5: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?6: He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,7: Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.8: And they remembered his words,9: And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.10: It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.11: And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.12: Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.13: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.14: And they talked together of all these things which had happened.15: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.16: But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.17: And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?18: And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?19: And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:20: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.21: But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.22: Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;23: And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.24: And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.28: And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.29: But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.30: And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.31: And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?33: And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,34: Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.35: And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.36: And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.37: But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.38: And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?39: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.40: And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.41: And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?42: And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.43: And he took it, and did eat before them.44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.45: Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,46: And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.48: And ye are witnesses of these things.49: And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.50: And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.51: And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.52: And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:53: And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

[Spademan 94]

Luke 24 looks the same.

Ok, that's fine.But can I BUST THEIR RETINA NOW?I know that, up until this point, if I busted my slaves eyeball I would have to let him or her go free. (If it's a her I would have already raped her before I beat her, just in case, because god allows me to have sex with my slaves and I don't want to miss out if I accidentally bust her eyeball or break a tooth).I'm hoping that this text shows clearly that I will now be able to bust their eyeball.I hate having to aim for the nose and pray that I don't hit their eyes or mouth. Such a hassle.

[crowTrobot 2]

This is laughable.Textual critism is probably the single greatest scientific strength in Christian appologetics today.

it's shouldn't be laughable to you that you won't find a single secular scholar who would agree with you on that. if it were really a "scientific" strength you would.

We can reconstruct 95% of the New Testament just from letters of church leaders where they quote the NT. We have over 10,000 ancient copies.

you can reconstruct 95% of the original mishmash of obvious plagiarism and dubious authorship with no objective evidence that any of what you call "original" wasn't written decades after the fact. that proves jesus was god i guess.

Or at least stop trying to infer that you have special knowledge about a subject that you are completely ignorant of.

my previous statement is accepted as common knowledge among secular scholars, as well as a lot of the more objective religious ones. nothing special about it.

[SuitedAces21 2,729]

it's shouldn't be laughable to you that you won't find a single secular scholar who would agree with you on that. if it were really a "scientific" strength you would.you can reconstruct 95% of the original mishmash of obvious plagiarism and dubious authorship with no objective evidence that any of what you call "original" wasn't written decades after the fact. that proves jesus was god i guess.my previous statement is accepted as common knowledge among secular scholars, as well as a lot of the more objective religious ones. nothing special about it.

its like youre trying to explain yourself to a brick wall.

[crowTrobot 2]

Wait, does it take back that I can't hurt my slaves teeth when I beat them?I like that God allows me to keep slaves and beat them, but I don't like shying away from the mouth.

i would think you'd want your female slave's mouths in good shape.

[vbnautilus 49]

Guys, I share your frustrations with this argument, but we're not exactly proving BG wrong about the whole morals thing if we are just rude all the time. I love the sarcastic humor, but let's try to be civil. I know it feels like there's no getting through and we go in circles, but I'm not entirely cynical about the prospect of affecting each other in some positive way through this kind of argument. Besides, without his totally wrong position what would we do in here?

[BaseJester 1]

Mark is shorter. Luke starts up on the same page, so there aren't missing pages at the end.

16:1 And when the sabbath had passed, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.2 And very early on the first of the week they came to the sepulcher, the sun having risen.3 And they said among themselves: Who shall roll away for us the stone from the door of the sepulcher?4 And looking up they see that the stone had been rolled away; for it was very great.5 And they entered the sepulcher and saw a young man, sitting at the right side, clothed in a white robe; and they were amazed.6 But he says to them: Be not amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene who was crucified; he has risen, he is not here: see the place where they laid him.7 But go, tell his disciples, especially Peter, that he goes before you into Galilee: there you shall see him, as he said to you.8 And going out they fled from the sepulcher; for trembling and astonishment had seized them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.2: And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.3: And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?4: And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.5: And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.6: And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.7: But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.8: And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.9: Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.10: And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.11: And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.12: After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.13: And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.20: And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

[crowTrobot 2]

Mark is shorter. Luke starts up on the same page, so there aren't missing pages at the end.

the history of mark 16: 9-20 certainly is a mess, with evidence indicating it's a 2nd or 3rd century tack on to makemark match up with the other gospels.

[Spademan 94]

Guys, I share your frustrations with this argument, but we're not exactly proving BG wrong about the whole morals thing if we are just rude all the time. I love the sarcastic humor, but let's try to be civil. I know it feels like there's no getting through and we go in circles, but I'm not entirely cynical about the prospect of affecting each other in some positive way through this kind of argument. Besides, without his totally wrong position what would we do in here?

1. Who is being rude? If one searches the old and new testaments for Gods view on slavery, everything I've said is absolutely true for a Christians. Their God figure allows some of his followers to keep, beat and have sex with slaves, as long as they don't kill them, or bust their eye-socket or break a tooth. If they hurt their eye or tooth, they have to set them free. I don't see a problem with pointing out something they already believe 100% if they are not hypocrites, and adding that it is too bad they can't sever their slaves retina or take out their teeth one by one.2. Most religions are based on texts that are about the most rude, abrasive, vulgar, disgusting, eternal punishment to non-believer threatening, research stifling, misogynistic, pieces of trash humanity has ever concocted. If they believe their particular superstitious, brain-numbing, absurdity spouting tomes... fuck civility. 3. I am not party to this concern we give to people who believe that slaves are ok and babies are born sinners. If someone spouts some nonsense bullshit I'm going to call it nonsense bullshit. 4. Seriously though, I want to beat my slaves teeth out and then gouge their eyes with the shards. God needs to take his slave beating rules a step further. 5. There is no 5. Just like there is no spoon. Just like text isn't moving, mind is moving.

[vbnautilus 49]

1. Who is being rude? If one searches the old and new testaments for Gods view on slavery, everything I've said is absolutely true for a Christians. Their God figure allows some of his followers to keep, beat and have sex with slaves, as long as they don't kill them, or bust their eye-socket or break a tooth. If they hurt their eye or tooth, they have to set them free. I don't see a problem with pointing out something they already believe 100% if they are not hypocrites, and adding that it is too bad they can't sever their slaves retina or take out their teeth one by one.2. Most religions are based on texts that are about the most rude, abrasive, vulgar, disgusting, eternal punishment to non-believer threatening, research stifling, misogynistic, pieces of trash humanity has ever concocted. If they believe their particular superstitious, brain-numbing, absurdity spouting tomes... fuck civility. 3. I am not party to this concern we give to people who believe that slaves are ok and babies are born sinners. If someone spouts some nonsense bullshit I'm going to call it nonsense bullshit. 4. Seriously though, I want to beat my slaves teeth out and then gouge their eyes with the shards. God needs to take his slave beating rules a step further. 5. There is no 5. Just like there is no spoon. Just like text isn't moving, mind is moving.

I wasn't talking about the slave thing, and I agree you have the right to call bullshit when you see it. I dunno, I just felt like the tone in here was ratcheting up, but I could have been imaging it. Carry on. But regarding #2 - I think when people are irrational, unfair, or whatever, the only solution is to use the carrot and show what the opposite is. Humans cannot help but to imitate.

[Balloon guy 158]

it's shouldn't be laughable to you that you won't find a single secular scholar who would agree with you on that. if it were really a "scientific" strength you would.you can reconstruct 95% of the original mishmash of obvious plagiarism and dubious authorship with no objective evidence that any of what you call "original" wasn't written decades after the fact. that proves jesus was god i guess.my previous statement is accepted as common knowledge among secular scholars, as well as a lot of the more objective religious ones. nothing special about it.

Really, you want to make a stand here crow?Cause I would love you too.While you round up all the secular scholars in the world who you speak for, I will wait and collect some data for you.Feel free to produce these learned men and their work,who have peeled back the truths that the Christians have been hiding.Should we focus on the higher or lower forms of textual crticism?Here's a quick little site that has a good collection of some guys who claim to know what they are talking about.they use like facts and stuff, and reference their work, but I'm sure ou will be able to clear the muck and show them for the biased charlatans that they are.Danger Danger..lies and distortions are afoot

[Spademan 94]

I wasn't talking about the slave thing, and I agree you have the right to call bullshit when you see it. I dunno, I just felt like the tone in here was ratcheting up, but I could have been imaging it. Carry on. But regarding #2 - I think when people are irrational, unfair, or whatever, the only solution is to use the carrot and show what the opposite is. Humans cannot help but to imitate.

Oh. Ya, I was ratcheting it up a bit.I'll take it from a 15 to an 8 for you, since you actually like oft fruitless dialogue that has an high outside change of some effect. =PBtw, the most important point in my post was number 5, you UNENLIGHTENED JACKASS.

[crowTrobot 2]

Really, you want to make a stand here crow?Cause I would love you too.While you round up all the secular scholars in the world who you speak for, I will wait and collect some data for you.Feel free to produce these learned men and their work,who have peeled back the truths that the Christians have been hiding.Should we focus on the higher or lower forms of textual crticism?

ooo scary.i repeat it's accepted as common knowledge among the vast majority of secular scholars that the evidence indicates the gospels are largely plagiarisms and are of dubious authorship.i've read enough of them to know that's obviously true. general speaking only christian apologists think they could possibly be first-hand accounts.

[vbnautilus 49]

Btw, the most important point in my post was number 5, you UNENLIGHTENED JACKASS.

No, I'm just a level beyond you, sensei. You know how first mountains are mountains, then mountains are no longer mountains, but later mountains are just mountains again?

[crowTrobot 2]

Here's a quick little site that has a good collection of some guys who claim to know what they are talking about.they use like facts and stuff, and reference their work, but I'm sure ou will be able to clear the muck and show them for the biased charlatans that they are.Danger Danger..lies and distortions are afoot

scanned that and don't see anything relevant to my statements.