Hellmuth

[irishguy 14]

I'm not sure what to say to you. I don't care at all about winning money from you. If you can present any rational reason that Daniel would wait until 2008 to sign with Pokerstars I will give you $500. If you find the thread where Daniel and I had a conversation about the marketing of his poker career, and it is different than the way I described it, I will give you the same amount of money. Otherwise good luck to you sir, and enjoy your life. I can't really understand why you would be so aggressively pursuing this issue.

I was just asking you to back up your argument...you pulled internet tough by issuing a wager. Which I gladly accepted and will gladly take your money if you have the class and integrity to follow through with your word.As for pokerstars. It is impossible to state he should've signed with them in 04-06 without knowing if/what the deal offered was. Also you stated he should've but didn't sign with a poker site at this time he did in 2004 sign with POKERMOUNTAIN again regardless of it failing it is impossible to state this wasn't the right move at the time. You stated that he didn't market himself at this time frame. Here is a list for you.2004- Starts fullcontactpoker.com (hmmm starting a website seems like marketing)2004- Signs with pokermountain 2004- Supersystem 2 is published including DN's chapter on 2-7 (being involved here seems like a solid marketing move)2005- Appears on 60 minutes (tough to fight the marketing power when appearing on a popular show02005- Announces the release of Stacked (hmmm video game seems like marketing to me)2005- Announces deal to be spokesperson with the Wynn2005- Daniels is all over the press newspapers articles, Opie and Anthony Radio (Clearly shying away from the spotlight)2005- After the failure of Pokermountain FCP launches their pokerroom2006- Protege 1 is launched- (surely a show revolving finding someone for you to mentor is not marketing)I think this proves my point. You can ship to me on pokerstars or fulltilt let me know which is easier and I'll send you my screen name.EDIT: Also the deal with Stars was made mid 2007 and transitioned straight from the FCP pokerroom after the UIGEA were passed. I look forward to hearing from you so we can complete our transaction

[gmanshade 0]

I was just asking you to back up your argument...you pulled internet tough by issuing a wager. Which I gladly accepted and will gladly take your money if you have the class and integrity to follow through with your word.As for pokerstars. It is impossible to state he should've signed with them in 04-06 without knowing if/what the deal offered was. Also you stated he should've but didn't sign with a poker site at this time he did in 2004 sign with POKERMOUNTAIN again regardless of it failing it is impossible to state this wasn't the right move at the time. You stated that he didn't market himself at this time frame. Here is a list for you.2004- Starts fullcontactpoker.com (hmmm starting a website seems like marketing)2004- Signs with pokermountain 2004- Supersystem 2 is published including DN's chapter on 2-7 (being involved here seems like a solid marketing move)2005- Appears on 60 minutes (tough to fight the marketing power when appearing on a popular show02005- Announces the release of Stacked (hmmm video game seems like marketing to me)2005- Announces deal to be spokesperson with the Wynn2005- Daniels is all over the press newspapers articles, Opie and Anthony Radio (Clearly shying away from the spotlight)2005- After the failure of Pokermountain FCP launches their pokerroom2006- Protege 1 is launched- (surely a show revolving finding someone for you to mentor is not marketing)I think this proves my point. You can ship to me on pokerstars or fulltilt let me know which is easier and I'll send you my screen name.EDIT: Also the deal with Stars was made mid 2007 and transitioned straight from the FCP pokerroom after the UIGEA were passed. I look forward to hearing from you so we can complete our transaction

[x] epic fail

[irishguy 14]

[x] epic fail

lol if by epic fail you mean exactly proving my point. Not shocking at all that you would pull the internet tough guy routine and issue a wager only to follow it up upon losing by proving that you are without any integrity at all. Well done sir, make a bet lose and don't pay classless stuff.

[Sportsmack 0]

[x] I opened my big mouth, was owned, and can't pay upgmanshade

eff'd ur p

[Naslund44 0]

gmanshade needs to gtfo of fcp...ppl like him are why this place is super ghey these days.

[NoSup4U 0]

It's so gross that I want to agree with gmanshade in this thread :(MarkEdit: Only on the point that back in the day, I also got the feeling that Daniel and many other pros wanted to be known for the fact that they made their money in poker, not in silly commercials and stuff. There was often talk of how they were great at poker and would make their money there, and Hellmuth was a huge donk who wasn't good at poker so he just marketed himself a ton. Then everyone realized the money they were missing out on and jumped on the marketing bandwagon.

[irishguy 14]

It's so gross that I want to agree with gmanshade in this thread :(MarkEdit: Only on the point that back in the day, I also got the feeling that Daniel and many other pros wanted to be known for the fact that they made their money in poker, not in silly commercials and stuff. There was often talk of how they were great at poker and would make their money there, and Hellmuth was a huge donk who wasn't good at poker so he just marketed himself a ton. Then everyone realized the money they were missing out on and jumped on the marketing bandwagon.

I do remember a lot of people saying things like that. But, other then Hellmuth I think Daniel was the most heavily marketed pro from 2004 on. Wanting to be known for poker skill first and foremost is one thing but I'd bet as soon as the boom hit Daniel was one of the first to have an agent. He had the big 04 year and seemed to ride it ie: poker mountain, monthly articles, books, video games etc. Some of his projects didn't work out but I mean signing with a poker site in 04 (followed by the rest of my above timeline) certainly doesn't seem like steering clear of the marketing bandwagon.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

I do remember a lot of people saying things like that. But, other then Hellmuth I think Daniel was the most heavily marketed pro from 2004 on. Wanting to be known for poker skill first and foremost is one thing but I'd bet as soon as the boom hit Daniel was one of the first to have an agent. He had the big 04 year and seemed to ride it ie: poker mountain, monthly articles, books, video games etc. Some of his projects didn't work out but I mean signing with a poker site in 04 (followed by the rest of my above timeline) certainly doesn't seem like steering clear of the marketing bandwagon.

Daniel was the first client that Brian Balsbaugh of Poker Royalty had and Brian was really the first poker agent.

[irishguy 14]

Daniel was the first client that Brian Balsbaugh of Poker Royalty had and Brian was really the first poker agent.

Thanks Bob I thought that was the case. Like I said he and Hellmuth were really the first pro's to embrace what the boom had to offer away from the tables. Had pokermountain turned into a success like stars or partypoker these conversations wouldn't be happening.

[tuckermitchell 1]

I disagree Mark, but I do see your point. I think DN tried to do it his way, from the ground up, rather than going after the big money. This was the same for MANY other name pros, i.e. Johnny Chan with chanpoker.net, doyle and doylesroom, along with plenty of others. No one is on these guys asses for being stupid about their choices. I may not be as eloquent as others in stating my opinions, but basically I mean he was trying to start something grassroots and grow it up huge. To some extent, this is what FCP is. You and I were here 4 years ago when it wasn't full of trolls and JC Alvarado was still playing .50/1 NL. This site has grown as DN's fame has. I would venture to guess that >95% of people came here in the beginning because they liked DN when they saw him on the picture box. I know that's how I started here.Furthermore, it's not like the guy is doing a bad job at marketing himself. He has to be, at the very least, the 2nd most famous professional poker player. Notice I didn't say richest, I said famous. I know it's hard to believe for people like gmanshade, but some people are hungry for getting just the most money. After all, there is a Phil who has made a ton off the poker boom, but his last name isn't Hellmuth, it's Ivey. He and Lederer and Ferguson backed FTP, and now they are set for life, regardless of what they do on the physical or e-felt. Everything else is just gravy. Aside from all that, I think it's to some extent despicable the way gmanshade acts with his told you so attitude. I'm glad irishguy showed him up here, which I absolutely think he did. Congratulations to Phil Hellmuth for marketing himself well. He's a jackass, very few people have a favorable opinion of him or his antics, but he's famous. So are Terrell Owens and Barry Bonds, doesn't make them the best people in their respective markets.

[MaxStPolish 4]

I disagree Mark, but I do see your point. I think DN tried to do it his way, from the ground up, rather than going after the big money. This was the same for MANY other name pros, i.e. Johnny Chan with chanpoker.net, doyle and doylesroom, along with plenty of others. No one is on these guys asses for being stupid about their choices. I may not be as eloquent as others in stating my opinions, but basically I mean he was trying to start something grassroots and grow it up huge. To some extent, this is what FCP is. You and I were here 4 years ago when it wasn't full of trolls and JC Alvarado was still playing .50/1 NL. This site has grown as DN's fame has. I would venture to guess that >95% of people came here in the beginning because they liked DN when they saw him on the picture box. I know that's how I started here.Furthermore, it's not like the guy is doing a bad job at marketing himself. He has to be, at the very least, the 2nd most famous professional poker player. Notice I didn't say richest, I said famous. I know it's hard to believe for people like gmanshade, but some people are hungry for getting just the most money. After all, there is a Phil who has made a ton off the poker boom, but his last name isn't Hellmuth, it's Ivey. He and Lederer and Ferguson backed FTP, and now they are set for life, regardless of what they do on the physical or e-felt. Everything else is just gravy. Aside from all that, I think it's to some extent despicable the way gmanshade acts with his told you so attitude. I'm glad irishguy showed him up here, which I absolutely think he did. Congratulations to Phil Hellmuth for marketing himself well. He's a jackass, very few people have a favorable opinion of him or his antics, but he's famous. So are Terrell Owens and Barry Bonds, doesn't make them the best people in their respective markets.

WIN. And I saw you quote less than jake in a post a few days ago. So you've elevated to feature member in my eyes.

[gmanshade 0]

It's so gross that I want to agree with gmanshade in this thread :(MarkEdit: Only on the point that back in the day, I also got the feeling that Daniel and many other pros wanted to be known for the fact that they made their money in poker, not in silly commercials and stuff. There was often talk of how they were great at poker and would make their money there, and Hellmuth was a huge donk who wasn't good at poker so he just marketed himself a ton. Then everyone realized the money they were missing out on and jumped on the marketing bandwagon.

Mark, this is so obviously true that the only reason I can imagine that people do not acknowledge it is because of their gmanshade-hating. Yes, Daniel had an agent. Yes, Daniel was interested in being well known (WSOP and WPT exposure). And yes, he was extremely interested in major endorsements like Pepsi. But no, he did not realize that signing with a poker site, starting a training site, and branding himself within the poker world was necessary. He looked at Phil Hellmuth as a weaker player who needed these endorsements because he wasn't good enough to make it on poker skills alone. It turns out--surprise surprise--that once poker was shown to be lucrative many skilled players began to play professionally, and have sacrificed the easy money Daniel suddenly had to scramble to get into the poker marketing game. When you think about the way Daniel was positioned early in the poker boom it is absolutely laughable that his signing with Poker Mountain or putting out a video game is taking full advantage of his clout in the industry. If DN apologists want to rewrite history and say that this is the case then they can go ahead and do that. All I will say is that hate gmanshade, love gmandhade, or be indifferent to gmanshade. Whatever you want to do at least open your ears and your eyes because it is possible to dislike someone and nonetheless recognize the coherence of their arguments.

[irishguy 14]

Mark, this is so obviously true that the only reason I can imagine that people do not acknowledge it is because of their gmanshade-hating. Yes, Daniel had an agent. Yes, Daniel was interested in being well known (WSOP and WPT exposure). And yes, he was extremely interested in major endorsements like Pepsi. But no, he did not realize that signing with a poker site, starting a training site, and branding himself within the poker world was necessary. He looked at Phil Hellmuth as a weaker player who needed these endorsements because he wasn't good enough to make it on poker skills alone. It turns out--surprise surprise--that once poker was shown to be lucrative many skilled players began to play professionally, and have sacrificed the easy money Daniel suddenly had to scramble to get into the poker marketing game. When you think about the way Daniel was positioned early in the poker boom it is absolutely laughable that his signing with Poker Mountain or putting out a video game is taking full advantage of his clout in the industry. If DN apologists want to rewrite history and say that this is the case then they can go ahead and do that. All I will say is that hate gmanshade, love gmandhade, or be indifferent to gmanshade. Whatever you want to do at least open your ears and your eyes because it is possible to dislike someone and nonetheless recognize the coherence of their arguments.

Again you are an idiot. HE SIGNED WITH A POKERSITE IN 2004! Just because you keep ignoring that fact doesn't make it go away. By 2005 he had his own POKER SITE PLUS VIDE0 GAMES, ARTICLES, DVD's, BOOKS how the hell is that scrambling to get in the marketing game? What more do you think he should've been doing at that point? I had zero against you but you've done nothing but prove in this thread that you are a pathetic little troll with zero integrity and it boggles my mind that you are still able to post here.

[gmanshade 0]

I disagree Mark, but I do see your point. I think DN tried to do it his way, from the ground up, rather than going after the big money. This was the same for MANY other name pros, i.e. Johnny Chan with chanpoker.net, doyle and doylesroom, along with plenty of others. No one is on these guys asses for being stupid about their choices. I may not be as eloquent as others in stating my opinions, but basically I mean he was trying to start something grassroots and grow it up huge. To some extent, this is what FCP is. You and I were here 4 years ago when it wasn't full of trolls and JC Alvarado was still playing .50/1 NL. This site has grown as DN's fame has. I would venture to guess that >95% of people came here in the beginning because they liked DN when they saw him on the picture box. I know that's how I started here.Furthermore, it's not like the guy is doing a bad job at marketing himself. He has to be, at the very least, the 2nd most famous professional poker player. Notice I didn't say richest, I said famous. I know it's hard to believe for people like gmanshade, but some people are hungry for getting just the most money. After all, there is a Phil who has made a ton off the poker boom, but his last name isn't Hellmuth, it's Ivey. He and Lederer and Ferguson backed FTP, and now they are set for life, regardless of what they do on the physical or e-felt. Everything else is just gravy. Aside from all that, I think it's to some extent despicable the way gmanshade acts with his told you so attitude. I'm glad irishguy showed him up here, which I absolutely think he did. Congratulations to Phil Hellmuth for marketing himself well. He's a jackass, very few people have a favorable opinion of him or his antics, but he's famous. So are Terrell Owens and Barry Bonds, doesn't make them the best people in their respective markets.

A couple of points:1) If Daniel disagrees with me I doubt that he would respond to my original thread with a tirade in which he calls me "stupid." I sent him numerous PM messages and have documented exchanges in threads where I offered him valuable advice. 2) You notice that no pro poker player has been successful in building a site from the ground up with just their name attached. Daniel tried to do this, you are absolutely right, but he tried to do it without branding or corporatizing his name. He openly laughed at Hellmuth. And it turns out Negreanu was dead wrong.3) I do not in any way intend to make Daniel feel badly about this. Why should he? He's famous and gets to live a comfortable life. But one of my purposes on FCP is to try and shed some light on the shady mythology of professional gambling. It is important to me that people consider an accurate representation of what this life is like. When you think of the position Daniel was in circa 2004 it is literally like he had a winning lottery ticket in his hand and rather than cashing it he decided to rip it up and try to hit the jackpot again the next day. This is the pathological mentality of the gambler.

[tuckermitchell 1]

Mark, this is so obviously true that the only reason I can imagine that people do not acknowledge it is because of their gmanshade-hating. Yes, Daniel had an agent. Yes, Daniel was interested in being well known (WSOP and WPT exposure). And yes, he was extremely interested in major endorsements like Pepsi. But no, he did not realize that signing with a poker site, starting a training site, and branding himself within the poker world was necessary. He looked at Phil Hellmuth as a weaker player who needed these endorsements because he wasn't good enough to make it on poker skills alone. It turns out--surprise surprise--that once poker was shown to be lucrative many skilled players began to play professionally, and have sacrificed the easy money Daniel suddenly had to scramble to get into the poker marketing game. When you think about the way Daniel was positioned early in the poker boom it is absolutely laughable that his signing with Poker Mountain or putting out a video game is taking full advantage of his clout in the industry. If DN apologists want to rewrite history and say that this is the case then they can go ahead and do that. All I will say is that hate gmanshade, love gmandhade, or be indifferent to gmanshade. Whatever you want to do at least open your ears and your eyes because it is possible to dislike someone and nonetheless recognize the coherence of their arguments.

I don't necessarily think you're wrong. DN made a bad choice in hindsight. That to me, to borrow a poker term, is results oriented thinking. He had an idea of what he wanted to accomplish with his career and his life and he took a shot. Sometimes, when you're not right 100% of time in life, you choose to follow Apple and not Microsoft. I'm glad you are perfect, I'm glad you're happy when you pound your e-chest on the internet. You're super cool and I wish I was you, as do most others. After all, you know it all, with the exception of making beverage purchases. God this shit is irritating me more than it should today. I need to talk to Mr. Nice Guy. I just wonder how you go through life behind a computer screen chastising everyone elses actions and feel good about yourself. I can imagine that in the real world, when you have to physically interact with people, you are a condescending, "I told you so" kind of prick. That's why people hate you. And you, at least in my opinion, are the kind of person that gives nothing to a community like FCP. You take from this community. You feed your ego by posting in threads like this. With the exception of your proplayer drink thread, I can't think of a single positive thing you've added to FCP. Please, feel free to post threads that prove me wrong on this, and I'll be happy to concede defeat. And fwiw, the only reason the proplayer thread is positive is because it made the majority of people laugh at how stupid and socially inept someone can possibly be, and all without having a clue how poor their interpersonal skills are. You win.

[Sportsmack 0]

But one of my purposes on FCP is to try and shed some light on the shady mythology of professional gambling.

Congratulations you are officially the...of FCP

[gmanshade 0]

I don't necessarily think you're wrong. DN made a bad choice in hindsight. That to me, to borrow a poker term, is results oriented thinking. He had an idea of what he wanted to accomplish with his career and his life and he took a shot. Sometimes, when you're not right 100% of time in life, you choose to follow Apple and not Microsoft. I'm glad you are perfect, I'm glad you're happy when you pound your e-chest on the internet. You're super cool and I wish I was you, as do most others. After all, you know it all, with the exception of making beverage purchases. God this shit is irritating me more than it should today. I need to talk to Mr. Nice Guy. I just wonder how you go through life behind a computer screen chastising everyone elses actions and feel good about yourself. I can imagine that in the real world, when you have to physically interact with people, you are a condescending, "I told you so" kind of prick. That's why people hate you. And you, at least in my opinion, are the kind of person that gives nothing to a community like FCP. You take from this community. You feed your ego by posting in threads like this. With the exception of your proplayer drink thread, I can't think of a single positive thing you've added to FCP. Please, feel free to post threads that prove me wrong on this, and I'll be happy to concede defeat. And fwiw, the only reason the proplayer thread is positive is because it made the majority of people laugh at how stupid and socially inept someone can possibly be, and all without having a clue how poor their interpersonal skills are. You win.

I am a flawed individual like anyone else. I am sorry that my post upset you. I would guess that in some way you identify with Daniel's decisions and that is why you are treating this topic so personally. I have no idea. My purpose on FCP is to try to educate, amuse, and entertain. If you find my posts boring, wrong, unfunny, or mean-spirited then don't feel the need to respond. The last thing that I want to do is make things more difficult for anyone on here.

[MaxStPolish 4]

Mark, this is so obviously true that the only reason I can imagine that people do not acknowledge it is because of their gmanshade-hating. Yes, Daniel had an agent. Yes, Daniel was interested in being well known (WSOP and WPT exposure). And yes, he was extremely interested in major endorsements like Pepsi. But no, he did not realize that signing with a poker site, starting a training site, and branding himself within the poker world was necessary. He looked at Phil Hellmuth as a weaker player who needed these endorsements because he wasn't good enough to make it on poker skills alone. It turns out--surprise surprise--that once poker was shown to be lucrative many skilled players began to play professionally, and have sacrificed the easy money Daniel suddenly had to scramble to get into the poker marketing game. When you think about the way Daniel was positioned early in the poker boom it is absolutely laughable that his signing with Poker Mountain or putting out a video game is taking full advantage of his clout in the industry. If DN apologists want to rewrite history and say that this is the case then they can go ahead and do that. All I will say is that hate gmanshade, love gmandhade, or be indifferent to gmanshade. Whatever you want to do at least open your ears and your eyes because it is possible to dislike someone and nonetheless recognize the coherence of their arguments.

I think the overriding issue I have with you in this is "why"? You've made your point clear like 20x over in this latest incarnation of posting. I think you will find that many people don't WHOLLY disagree with you....it's just that you keep hammering at this point that it becomes fanatical and/or annoying.Hindsight is always 20/20. What you don't seem to grasp is that I think daniel is pretty fvcking happy with his life. There's a ton of decisions that I could have made in life that would make my life look "better" to the random person. But I made the decisions I made that have made me happy. I could have a job paying 1.75-2x what I make now, but I knew from the onset that I would be working crazier, more stressful hours and it wasn't for me. Everyone toes their own line on happiness, and no one can see the future. Hence, I'm sure DN, like anyone in life can look back and see certain moves they wish they made, but also have moves they are happy they didn't make, no matter how "foolish" it might look from a random outsider view.I just cannot fathom what sense of purpose or self that you have to feel the need to grind this conversation down, keeping this "open your eyes" line for the "status quo". Seriously...I mean I'm only replying because I don't think you are a standard "troll", as your thoughts have a founded basis, but I just really think you have an e-narcissist edge that really comes off in bad form. It's like someone going to a sports game, and just booing the home team the whole time. The person has a founded basis in his booing.....but what's the point, beyond trying to rile people up?

[mtdesmoines 3]

I don't know how anyone can post on FCP -- of all places -- that Daniel wasn't investing / trying / thinking about how to maximize profitability off the felt. To me, the irony is pretty rich and deep.

[tuckermitchell 1]

I don't know how anyone can post on FCP -- of all places -- that Daniel wasn't investing / trying / thinking about how to maximize profitability off the felt. To me, the irony is pretty rich and deep.

good post. actually, fantastic post.

[gmanshade 0]

I don't know how anyone can post on FCP -- of all places -- that Daniel wasn't investing / trying / thinking about how to maximize profitability off the felt. To me, the irony is pretty rich and deep.

cliff notes for you: daniel was trying to make money without understanding the financial landscape of poker. now he has given up everything he once believed in to be rewarded in a meager fashion.

[irishguy 14]

In terms of my claim about Daniel N: it is pretty obvious that in 2004-2006 he could have easily signed with one of the poker sites, and that he could have invested in building the "Daniel Negreanu" brand rather than betting hundreds of thousands of dollars on prop bets and golf.gmanshade

2004- Starts fullcontactpoker.com (hmmm starting a website seems like marketing)2004- Signs with pokermountain 2004- Supersystem 2 is published including DN's chapter on 2-7 (being involved here seems like a solid marketing move)2005- Appears on 60 minutes (tough to fight the marketing power when appearing on a popular show02005- Announces the release of Stacked (hmmm video game seems like marketing to me)2005- Announces deal to be spokesperson with the Wynn2005- Daniels is all over the press newspapers articles, Opie and Anthony Radio (Clearly shying away from the spotlight)2005- After the failure of Pokermountain FCP launches their pokerroom2006- Protege 1 is launched- (surely a show revolving finding someone for you to mentor is not marketing)EDIT: Also the deal with Stars was made mid 2007 and transitioned straight from the FCP pokerroom after the UIGEA were passed. I look forward to hearing from you so we can complete our transaction

Daniel was the first client that Brian Balsbaugh of Poker Royalty had and Brian was really the first poker agent.

I just wanted to put this in order in case people new to the topic were having a tough time understanding how wrong you are.

I don't know how anyone can post on FCP -- of all places -- that Daniel wasn't investing / trying / thinking about how to maximize profitability off the felt. To me, the irony is pretty rich and deep.

lol

[Balloon guy 158]

He owned part of fullcontactpoker which did not fair well, and maybe he wanted to make sure that all of the parameters of associating with another online poker site were put well into place to ensure he wasn't liable for anything and that it was the right thing for him financially (getting the best sponsorship deal he could), especially with the UGMA being put into place at about the same time.You can ship $500 to guapo83 on stars.Thanks.

I talked to DN about this once..I do not feel it is within my rights to share what he said about this, but Guapo is owed $500.which he will never collect I am willing to bet

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I just wanted to put this in order in case people new to the topic were having a tough time understanding how wrong you are.lol

He will continue to ignore any valid point that you make because he is a Troll. That is what Trolls do....and the only reason Hellmuth is "popular" is because of the number of bracelets he has earned - not because of his self promotion/marketing. In fact, he is so widely viewed as a complete buffoon because of his marketing and TV persona that one could say he is popular despite his efforts.

[irishguy 14]

I talked to DN about this once..I do not feel it is within my rights to share what he said about this, but Guapo is owed $500.which he will never collect I am willing to bet

Hey let's not encourage others to try to takeover bets that were made with me!which I'm clearly never going to get anyways