The Existence Of Morality

[Sportsmack 0]

SS, by any chance have you ever had an IQ test?Did you pass?

sorry, are you more of a these kind of guy, I'm adaptable

[vbnautilus 48]

I think the answer lies much more into the Bible passage the sys that God grants us the grace to be forgiven.Ephesians 2:9For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.If your intent was required, your conscience effort if you will, then the above passage should read 'not by most works'

BG, do you ever worry that such particular analysis of the words in a passage like this might not be possible given that its translated from another language? I don't know if you speak any other languages, but translation is always a process of trying to approximate the best one can and making choices that respect what you see as the meaning. This was done by humans... can we really read that much into the word choice?

[Balloon guy 158]

BG, do you ever worry that such particular analysis of the words in a passage like this might not be possible given that its translated from another language? I don't know if you speak any other languages, but translation is always a process of trying to approximate the best one can and making choices that respect what you see as the meaning. This was done by humans... can we really read that much into the word choice?

When I was working in Hawaii building a golf course, the cultural anthropologist on the job and I became friendly. He worked on the translation committe working on the book of Ephesians for the NASB. He said there were a bunch of people working on just that one book, and that they had oversight committees etc. I've read a tiny bit about the language of the New Testament, being a form of Greek common to the average street person etc., but I am no way qualified to make any declaration from personal knowledge of the validity of what many thousands of learned men have said that the translation into english is.But I am comfortable with the knowledge that with all the efforts to find the most accurate translations, with all the efforts in textual criticism both higher and lower, I think that the words I read are as close to the original intent and meaning as is possible between two languages.Really interesting story about how the English Bible came into being, and how right as their was the Tyndales and others trying to translate the Latin, with very poor success, the muslims invaded Constantinople, causing a max influx of people to coem to Europe who had Greek Bibles with much stronger accuracy, and that the Greek languages translates into English so much smoother and with greater accuracy.More time has only stengthened that accuracy

[KramitDaToad 0]

Well you are not the first person to delve into what does it mean to ask forgiveness? I know I struggled with it for a while, wondering if I did it wrong, because everyone else seemed to be sure about their salvation, and I wasn't.I think the answer lies much more into the Bible passage the sys that God grants us the grace to be forgiven.Ephesians 2:9For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

Oh dear. This is farcical. Let's recap. I say there are people for whom repentance is impossible and you say " they [could] make a calculated decision about their actions without feeling right or wrong?" and ask to be savedEphesians 2:9 actual supports my argument that an action without genuine intent is worthless. I'm not even going to bother to spell it out to you. Simply go to any Bible study group of your choosing online and let your fellow Christians spell it out for youBetter still lets ask Jesus if he values repentanceLuke 5:32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."Luke 13 1:51 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."Luke 15:7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.Luke 15:10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."Matthew 4:17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."Mark 1:15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.or Peter perhapsActs 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped outetc etc etc

A sociopath can't feel implies that God can't overcome a chemical/physical imbalance, which by definition means He's not God.

You know what? I think you're getting it

[brvheart 1,752]

The most favorite part of my day: You have chosen to ignore all posts from: KramitDaToad.· View this post· Un-ignore KramitDaToad

[Balloon guy 158]

Oh dear. This is farcical. Let's recap. I say there are people for whom repentance is impossible and you say " they [could] make a calculated decision about their actions without feeling right or wrong?" and ask to be savedEphesians 2:9 actual supports my argument that an action without genuine intent is worthless. I'm not even going to bother to spell it out to you. Simply go to any Bible study group of your choosing online and let your fellow Christians spell it out for youBetter still lets ask Jesus if he values repentanceLuke 5:32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."Luke 13 1:51 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."Luke 15:7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.Luke 15:10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."Matthew 4:17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."Mark 1:15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"Matthew 11:20 Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.or Peter perhapsActs 3:19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped outetc etc etcYou know what? I think you're getting it

I guess farcical was the word of the day on some internet site? Seems to be popping up alot around here...And I would love to debate what the Bible means regarding anything you want.Maybe there's a remote chance you can get past your confusion about what it says.Maybe a good starting point is for you to explain why you have a grasp of what 'true intent' means.In the mean time, I will grant you that I agree that the Bible has many verses that says a person must repent.Now what does repentance mean? Can you repent of the sin of stealing, never ever steal again, and not have repented because you don't feel that stealing is wrong? Or can you repent, feel that stealing is really wrong, repent again, then steal something 5 years later? Which is more likely to qualify as repentance?

[KramitDaToad 0]

And I would love to debate what the Bible means regarding anything you want.

Don't look now but that's actually what we are doing and quite frankly it's not going that good for you

In the mean time, I will grant you that I agree that the Bible has many verses that says a person must repent.

Now rewind back through the argument...

Can you repent of the sin of stealing, never ever steal again, and not have repented because you don't feel that stealing is wrong? Or can you repent, feel that stealing is really wrong, repent again, then steal something 5 years later? Which is more likely to qualify as repentance?

WTF? Try saying that again in English.Although it looks like you are going to try and redefine the meaning of repent. If that's the case, don't bother. Let's just leave it at game set and match to the small green jedi.

[Balloon guy 158]

Don't look now but that's actually what we are doing and quite frankly it's not going that good for you Now rewind back through the argument...WTF? Try saying that again in English.Although it looks like you are going to try and redefine the meaning of repent. If that's the case, don't bother. Let's just leave it at game set and match to the small green jedi.

If I'm the small green Jedi...then YES!If not then I would ask you to consider that IF you are right, nothing changes for me, but IIIIFFFF you are wrong, you are going to suffer forever in hell, or Sheol in the Hebrew, unless you just please accept Jesus cause He died for your sins...Not for the foolish belief that we used to be monkeys...

[BaseJester 1]

If not then I would ask you to consider that IF you are right, nothing changes for me, but IIIIFFFF you are wrong, you are going to suffer forever in hell, or Sheol in the Hebrew, unless you just please accept Jesus cause He died for your sins...Not for the foolish belief that we used to be monkeys...

I read 7 pages of crap to get to Pascal's Wager? I'm disappointed.

[brvheart 1,752]

I read 7 pages of crap to get to Pascal's Wager? I'm disappointed.

Pascal's Wager is nothing to quickly dismiss.

[crowTrobot 2]

Pascal's Wager is nothing to quickly dismiss.

you're right, quick dismissal is too good for it. it's something to laugh at and mock.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I read 7 pages of crap to get to Pascal's Wager? I'm disappointed.

Look at the post BG is responding to.Taken in context, it shows you the reasons we love him to bits, despite his penchant for being wrong

[KramitDaToad 0]

Pascal's wager goes up in a puff of smoke. That would really piss brvheart off

...

Pascal's Wager is nothing to quickly dismiss.

Like shooting fish in a barrel

[Balloon guy 158]

Look at the post BG is responding to.Taken in context, it shows you the reasons we love him to bits, despite his penchant for being wrong

Yea.. I was kind of shaking my head there.I knew you would get it. you brits have a good sense of humor.I mean you eat spotted dick for crying out loud...

[Balloon guy 158]

...Like shooting fish in a barrel

Of course Pascal's wager does have one small point that you guys seem to pretend doesn't exist.One day you will die.Pretending that you have found a loophole for why you don't have to worry about it isn't as much of a safety net as you guys pretend that it is.

[vbnautilus 48]

Of course Pascal's wager does have one small point that you guys seem to pretend doesn't exist.One day you will die.Pretending that you have found a loophole for why you don't have to worry about it isn't as much of a safety net as you guys pretend that it is.

Yes all atheists look forward to death. In fact, we are so flippant in the face of death that we are often found riding in cars without seatbelts just for the the thrill. Life on earth is much more important when its the only one you have.

[crowTrobot 2]

Pretending that you have found a loophole for why you don't have to worry about it isn't as much of a safety net as you guys pretend that it is.

in the same sense as pretending you've found a loophole for why you don't have to worry about ending up in FSM pasta hell after you die isn't as much of a safety net as you pretend it is.

[Balloon guy 158]

Yes all atheists look forward to death. In fact, we are so flippant in the face of death that we are often found riding in cars without seatbelts just for the the thrill. Life on earth is much more important when its the only one you have.

I don't think the word important means what you think it means in this context.

[Balloon guy 158]

in the same sense as pretending you've found a loophole for why you don't have to worry about ending up in FSM pasta hell after you die isn't as much of a safety net as you pretend it is.

Sorry, but in the Pascal Wager deal, I am totally on freeroll.I will die just like youI will suffer either the same or better results though.I also know that you will understand this eventually.

[vbnautilus 48]

I will suffer either the same or better or worse results though.

You keep forgetting about the true spiritual connection with nature you are missing out on due to your religious concepts.

[Balloon guy 158]

and I take the transistion to PW to mean you guys admit to losing the ability to claim that morality evolved?I mean you ( and by you I mean vb because the rest of you have failed to even remotely present any argument at all but instead have completely and totaly hidden behind the claim to authority defense that is the sign of a failed logical skill set) you have basically continued down the path of saying that man would pick the morality that has the best results, while ignoring all the moral issues that aren't results driven.Such as the morality of letting an unhealthy child live. A child that is never going to be anything but a burden on a family, contributes nothing to the betterment of a society or a family, and is in fact a drain.I am curious how you would argue that the marol decision to grant that this person's life is more important than the family's financial, emotional, and practicle well being could have evolved from a darwinian evolutionary beginning that all 'learned' men believe?

[Balloon guy 158]

You keep forgetting about the true spiritual connection with nature you are missing out on due to your religious concepts.

And you keep missing out on the reality that winning a game of solitair isn't going to make your life have meaning, especially when there is no meaning except for one that we stole from religions.And I would compare my moments of true spiritual connection during normal worship at church to any you've experienced even when you were lying to break into a really cool buddhist monestary.Although I do think a person can have these true spiriatual connections without being Christian...like you. I am curious how crow and kramit are going to accept the notion that spiritual connections (ie connectly intellectually and emotionally with outside sources of metaphysical truths) and how they reconcile the idea that there is value in this endeavour

[vbnautilus 48]

And you keep missing out on the reality that winning a game of solitair isn't going to make your life have meaning, especially when there is no meaning except for one that we stole from religions.

Well I use that only to counter Pascal's Wager, which is an individual game. The real tragedy is that humanity as a whole suffers the longer its mental concepts (e.g. "god", "self", etc.) keep it our of harmony with nature.

[crowTrobot 2]

Sorry, but in the Pascal Wager deal, I am totally on freeroll.I will die just like youI will suffer either the same or better results though.

unless the FSM eternally punishes those who use pascal's wager.better repent and stop using it just in case.

[vbnautilus 48]

and I take the transistion to PW to mean you guys admit to losing the ability to claim that morality evolved?

I'm just going with the flow here.

I mean you ( and by you I mean vb because the rest of you have failed to even remotely present any argument at all but instead have completely and totaly hidden behind the claim to authority defense that is the sign of a failed logical skill set) you have basically continued down the path of saying that man would pick the morality that has the best results, while ignoring all the moral issues that aren't results driven.Such as the morality of letting an unhealthy child live. A child that is never going to be anything but a burden on a family, contributes nothing to the betterment of a society or a family, and is in fact a drain.I am curious how you would argue that the marol decision to grant that this person's life is more important than the family's financial, emotional, and practicle well being could have evolved from a darwinian evolutionary beginning that all 'learned' men believe?

I don't quite understand the question here. In what circumstances do we "grant life" to such a person? Are you asking why we refrain from murdering a sick child?

And I would compare my moments of true spiritual connection during normal worship at church to any you've experienced even when you were lying to break into a really cool buddhist monestary.

this made me burst out in laughter, well done.