tskillz187 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (2 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (SB) ($208.50)Button ($200)Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10Button bets $5, Hero raises $20, Button calls $16Flop: ($44) Q, 8, 6(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $28I've shown this hand to a few people I respect HU and their answers were all over the place, lol. HU is so weird sometimes. Most people bet here, but I didn't and I'll get into it later. But anyways, how do you play the hand out from here. What do you do on flop, if you proceed what do you do on different turns and how does it affect river play?Edit: Only reads are he sat in full and has auto-reload on, all signs point to semi-competent player. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I don't hate calling, but I don't like it either. C/r is a strong move but he's probably not dumping TP.I probably c/c and see the turn.But I'm balls at HU so... Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 If you c/c turn what do you do on various turns? We need a plan for the rest of the hand if we c/c. Link to post Share on other sites
mtdesmoines 3 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (2 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (SB) ($208.50)Button ($200)Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10Button bets $5, Hero raises $20, Button calls $16Flop: ($44) Q, 8, 6(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $28I've shown this hand to a few people I respect HU and their answers were all over the place, lol. HU is so weird sometimes. Most people bet here, but I didn't and I'll get into it later. But anyways, how do you play the hand out from here. What do you do on flop, if you proceed what do you do on different turns and how does it affect river play?Edit: Only reads are he sat in full and has auto-reload on, all signs point to semi-competent player.If he's competent, I think I dump it. That $28 bet is a total value bet. Also, what could he hold that he flats a 3bet HU? I don't think you can assign AK here every time and be profitable. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 His range is something like all pps, A8ss+ A9o+ KTss+ KJo+ JTss+ possibly some suited connectors and gappers that are lower.Check/folding flop is not an option, it'd be a really weak play. If we were uncomfortable with our hand we'd bet/fold or bet shut down if called. The options here are to c/r or c/c. Which is better and why? (betting is certainly an option, but I already showed you that I didn't do that) Link to post Share on other sites
bigbluffzinc 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I'm c-r here for several reasons. First, I think cc is bad because on this board almost any competent player is double barreling, given the action you can't have any draws like 7/5, and you're raising any K above KT on the flop most of the time (if he thinks you're decent) meaning a flat advertises our hand as being A8 or a pp beneath the K... a c-r at the same time advertises our hand as being AK/KQ/AA/KJ since we raised pre flop and he flatted, meaning if he comes over the top AGAIN he's got us crushed and if he flats hes probably got a hand similar to ours or a weak K and we can proceed according to whether we think he can fold to a pot bet on turn... all in all cc means we're donating in most situations as calling a turn bet is TOUGH and we should expect it as aforementioned, and i personally HATE being the POW. Link to post Share on other sites
bigbluffzinc 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 *we could also have a weak K with a cc but its still correct for villain to double barrel* Link to post Share on other sites
No_Neck 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 His range is something like all pps, A8ss+ A9o+ KTss+ KJo+ JTss+ possibly some suited connectors and gappers that are lower.Check/folding flop is not an option, it'd be a really weak play. If we were uncomfortable with our hand we'd bet/fold or bet shut down if called. The options here are to c/r or c/c. Which is better and why? (betting is certainly an option, but I already showed you that I didn't do that)I think that check calling is the way to go simply because on that board you are not going to get a lot of calls from things that you beat. There are no draws really to speak of so if you are ahead you are at worst facing two overs which seem to always hit but don't from a math stand point.Also if an A or K fall and that doesn't slow him down any you can think about pitching it IMO.meaning if he comes over the top AGAIN he's got us crushedthis seems like betting for information Link to post Share on other sites
bigbluffzinc 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 i understand that if we flip the hands face up its correct to cc... that's clear, however we can't call a turn bet and any one whose slightly competent will be double barreling this board, meaning if you think a street ahead cc becomes bad unless you intend to call the turn and the r... i think one of the mistakes people make is taking small ball and cc too far by not thinking through further streets... if we cc this board we open ourselves up too much bc i think we cf turn WAY too frequently for a cc to be profitable.. and if we aren't folding turn without an A hitting the board i think its better to bet.*IF you take the line of cc i am indeed double barreling the hands we beat... ALL of them from A high to a smaller pair to a K, and so is any reasonable player imo.. * Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (2 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (SB) ($208.50)Button ($200)Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10Button bets $5, Hero raises $20, Button calls $16Flop: ($44) Q, 8, 6(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $28, Hero calls $28Turn: ($100) K(2 players)Hero ???If we check, c/c is a much better play than c/r. A checkraise turns our hand into a complete bluff, and we'll never get a Q to fold ever, so we're just bluffing out hands we are ahead of. What should we do on this turn? Link to post Share on other sites
bigbluffzinc 0 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 if we cc flop we should be cc turn with the idea that were cf r to just about any bet... Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (2 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (SB) ($208.50)Button ($200)Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10Button bets $5, Hero raises $20, Button calls $16Flop: ($44) Q, 8, 6(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $28, Hero calls $28Turn: ($100) K(2 players)Hero ???If we check, c/c is a much better play than c/r. A checkraise turns our hand into a complete bluff, and we'll never get a Q to fold ever, so we're just bluffing out hands we are ahead of. What should we do on this turn? How competent is this guy? I'm guessing not very much.The turn is either a c/c or c/f. It sort of depends on how aggressive he has been imo. If he has been sort of aggro, I prefer a c/c, but if he hasn't been overly aggro, we can probably c/f this turn. It's really hard for him to bet this turn with anything we're ahead of in most situations unless he's crazy. If he checks behind, I have no idea whether I would c/c or b/f the river. I guess I would c/c most rivers, but that feels weak. Link to post Share on other sites
whatgreatis 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (2 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comHero (SB) ($208.50)Button ($200)Preflop: Hero is SB with 10, 10Button bets $5, Hero raises $20, Button calls $16Flop: ($44) Q, 8, 6(2 players)Hero checks, Button bets $28, Hero calls $28Turn: ($100) K(2 players)Hero ???If we check, c/c is a much better play than c/r. A checkraise turns our hand into a complete bluff, and we'll never get a Q to fold ever, so we're just bluffing out hands we are ahead of. What should we do on this turn? I think check/calling flop and folding to that turn is the best way to play the hand. Obviously there are some turns that I'm willing to continue on, but this isn't one of them.Betting that flop is really villain dependent and it's hard for me to accurately comment on it. Link to post Share on other sites
SwolyswoND 1 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 What about a b/f on the turn? Haven't we repped AK with how we played the flop? I'm not sure how much I like checking turn because if he bets his range is still super wide from Qx, sets etc or it could still be 8x, 99 etc that he is turning into a bluff. Makes it really hard to play it oop. Qx might either fire again or check behind, which would make the river very awkward to play.I just feel like that given how we played the flop he probably has us put on exactly {99/TT/JJ/AK} and will be able to valuetown us perfectly if we check the turn. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 I never have AK here. I'd bet the flop almost always with AK or I'd occasionally c/r with it. C/C with AK is pretty bad on flop. This turn is a pretty damn good card. It looks horrible, cuz it's an over card that hits his pf calling range pretty hard. But if he bets the turn he usually doesn't have a Q here because he'd be worried about the K. If he's reallly good he'd still bet the Q for value because I never have a hand with a K in it based on flop play, but he'd hafta be very good imo. So if he bets turn here he either bluffed flop with AK and didn't 4bet pf (unlikley with AK imo), has KJ, or KQ and runs like Jesus. I think turn is a pretty standard c/c here just because so much of his range is a bluff if he bets again. That is not what I did though as I didn't think this far in depth during the hand, cuz I suck. I'll show the HH when I get home around 5pm est. Link to post Share on other sites
whatgreatis 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I never have AK here. I'd bet the flop almost always with AK or I'd occasionally c/r with it. C/C with AK is pretty bad on flop. This turn is a pretty damn good card. It looks horrible, cuz it's an over card that hits his pf calling range pretty hard. But if he bets the turn he usually doesn't have a Q here because he'd be worried about the K. If he's reallly good he'd still bet the Q for value because I never have a hand with a K in it based on flop play, but he'd hafta be very good imo. So if he bets turn here he either bluffed flop with AK and didn't 4bet pf (unlikley with AK imo), has KJ, or KQ and runs like Jesus. I think turn is a pretty standard c/c here just because so much of his range is a bluff if he bets again. That is not what I did though as I didn't think this far in depth during the hand, cuz I suck. I'll show the HH when I get home around 5pm est.If you think his range is wide enough, I certainly don't mind check/calling the turn. I was just kind of giving the standard line, you know. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Yeah I know what you're saying. I'm just saying you're wrong This is one of the tuns that's good to continue on because he will shut down a lot, so if he bets his bluff range > his value range. Anyways for what I actually did, I c/c for the wrong reasons and decided I was going to double barrel if a K or A came, c/f if something else came and c/r if a T came obvio.***** Hand History for Game 12911527097 ***** (Full Tilt)$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, June 19, 06:28:14 ET 2009Table Flag (heads up) (Real Money)Seat 2 is the buttonSeat 1: lilmissliss ( $208.50 USD )Seat 2: yodango ( $200.00 USD )yodango posts small blind [$1.00 USD].lilmissliss posts big blind [$2.00 USD].** Dealing down cards **Dealt to lilmissliss [ Tc Ts ]yodango raises [$5.00 USD]lilmissliss raises [$20.00 USD]yodango calls [$16.00 USD]** Dealing Flop ** [ Qs, 8d, 6h ]lilmissliss checksyodango bets [$28.00 USD]lilmissliss calls [$28.00 USD]** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ]lilmissliss bets [$40.00 USD]yodango calls [$40.00 USD]** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]lilmissliss checksyodango bets [$50.00 USD]lilmissliss calls [$50.00 USD]yodango shows [7d, 9c ]lilmissliss shows [Tc, Ts ]lilmissliss wins $279.50 USD from main potThats the entire HH. What happened on the river here is I froze up and was trying to decide if he didn't have Ks here often and if I could get Qs to fold, both of which I think I do have a decent amount of tiem, but by the time I came to that conclusion I figured it took wayyyyyyy too long and he wouldn't think I was vbetting anymore. So I checked and he INSTA bet $50. Well he just can't insta bet a Q there for value, he'd hafta think WTF do I have with my line. So I called and he was FOS here. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Wow I played a HU hand somewhat correctly. That's weird. Link to post Share on other sites
tskillz187 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Wow I played a HU hand somewhat correctly. That's weird.Yeah it's odd, like he should bet a Q there for value because I never have a K, but I'd be very surprised if someone did that at $200nl. If he had bet the Q and we got to showdown I woulda noted it and quit him cuz that would be a pretty advanced play imo. Link to post Share on other sites
NoBBiR 0 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Yeah it's odd, like he should bet a Q there for value because I never have a K, but I'd be very surprised if someone did that at $200nl. If he had bet the Q and we got to showdown I woulda noted it and quit him cuz that would be a pretty advanced play imo.Yeah it's really hard to bet the turn without KQ/86. I dunno honestly if I'd ever be able to call the turn if he actually did bet because it seems so impossible that he would do it with anything we even close to beat unless he just bet the flop with JT trying to pick up, which coincidentally, he would never be able to pick it up anyway, lol. Link to post Share on other sites
FARGOpokerND 22 Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 My 1st thought reading the HH is c/c flop and b/f any safe turn, but....what are you going to do if he raises your turn. Link to post Share on other sites
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