Do Christians Dream About Jesus?

[vbnautilus 48]

Brvheart, I love your new sig file!The only answer I've gotten to my question, though, is another instance of the strange silence around the subject. Recent psych experiments show that glossolalia (a/k/a speaking in tongues) in evangelicals actually leaves their language center dark, while lighting up other parts of their brain on fMRI. If I were ever to go back to grad school for psych (instead of the more likely history or Shakespeare), this question would totally be one I'd want to study. If the answer is that Christians do not dream about Jesus, then it's a complete violation of the entire theory of dreaming (namely, frequency or same-day influences). It might also mean that something is blocking that particular region of thought from appearing in dream worlds. That is so interesting to me.

So this is very close to my heart since I do fMRI on issues related to self, intentionality, and recently, religion. The study you are referring to by Andrew Newberg (unless there is a newer one that I am not aware of and cannot find) was not actually done with fMRI though, it was a different technique (SPECT) which uses radioactive isotopes to measure blood flow in the brain. It's not true that language centers were "dark" during glossolalia. In fact, the study design only allows for a comparison between glossolalia and another speech act, singing. There were no differences reported in language areas between these two conditions -- but not because they were inactive, likely because they were active in both conditions. The interesting finding from this study was a decrease in activity in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which may account for the experience of involuntariness. We have recently done a study comparing brain activity in Christians and nonbelievers; I'll be sure to link it here when it is published (hopefully soon...). In the meantime, my collaborator Sam Harris has some preliminary data up on his web site ( http://www.reasonproject.org/project2/ ).

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

I dreamed about a phish concert last night, to my ever lasting shame.

[Spademan 94]

So

You ever been on Charlie Rose?

[BigDMcGee 3,352]

The interesting finding from this study was a decrease in activity in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which may account for the experience of involuntariness.

You know what else could account for the experience of involuntariness, jackass? The spirit of the living GOD entering you, you blasphemous cretin.

[vbnautilus 48]

You ever been on Charlie Rose?

Not in the way you're thinking.

You know what else could account for the experience of involuntariness, jackass? The spirit of the living GOD entering you, you blasphemous cretin.

Obviously the spirit of god turns off the prefrontal cortex, READ BETWEEN THE LINES!

[Balloon guy 158]

Not in the way you're thinking. Obviously the spirit of god turns off the prefrontal cortex, READ BETWEEN THE LINES!

Pfft Like my prefrontal cortex was ever on

[Spademan 94]

Not in the way you're thinking.

I was thinking sexually.

[vbnautilus 48]

I was thinking sexually.

That's what I figured. I was on his show, but we never became physically intimate.

[Spademan 94]

That's what I figured. I was on his show, but we never became physically intimate.

That's unfortunate. He has a fine jaw and a well cut nose.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

So this is very close to my heart since I do fMRI on issues related to self, intentionality, and recently, religion. The study you are referring to by Andrew Newberg (unless there is a newer one that I am not aware of and cannot find) was not actually done with fMRI though, it was a different technique (SPECT) which uses radioactive isotopes to measure blood flow in the brain. It's not true that language centers were "dark" during glossolalia. In fact, the study design only allows for a comparison between glossolalia and another speech act, singing. There were no differences reported in language areas between these two conditions -- but not because they were inactive, likely because they were active in both conditions. The interesting finding from this study was a decrease in activity in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which may account for the experience of involuntariness. We have recently done a study comparing brain activity in Christians and nonbelievers; I'll be sure to link it here when it is published (hopefully soon...). In the meantime, my collaborator Sam Harris has some preliminary data up on his web site ( http://www.reasonproject.org/project2/ ).

Damn NPR and their dumbed-down reporting! This sounds even more interesting. However, the way they reported it, it sounded as though there was less activity in speech areas than there is during ordinary talking. I don't know how they implied that conclusion from what you're describing. It was two years ago that I heard it, though, so I may very well be misremembering.

[speedz99 145]

Brvheart, I love your new sig file!The only answer I've gotten to my question, though, is another instance of the strange silence around the subject. Recent psych experiments show that glossolalia (a/k/a speaking in tongues) in evangelicals actually leaves their language center dark, while lighting up other parts of their brain on fMRI. If I were ever to go back to grad school for psych (instead of the more likely history or Shakespeare), this question would totally be one I'd want to study. If the answer is that Christians do not dream about Jesus, then it's a complete violation of the entire theory of dreaming (namely, frequency or same-day influences). It might also mean that something is blocking that particular region of thought from appearing in dream worlds. That is so interesting to me.

So they turn off their brains while yelling gibberish? Shocking.

[vbnautilus 48]

Damn NPR and their dumbed-down reporting! This sounds even more interesting. However, the way they reported it, it sounded as though there was less activity in speech areas than there is during ordinary talking. I don't know how they implied that conclusion from what you're describing. It was two years ago that I heard it, though, so I may very well be misremembering.

Actually I think NPR is usually decent in their science reporting. But yeah, it was definitely prefrontal cortex that decreased in activity... maybe they said something like less activity in "speech monitoring areas". You have to take all these things with a grain of salt though since we are pretty clueless about most of these brain regions still, and almost no brain area only does one thing.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Actually I think NPR is usually decent in their science reporting. But yeah, it was definitely prefrontal cortex that decreased in activity... maybe they said something like less activity in "speech monitoring areas". You have to take all these things with a grain of salt though since we are pretty clueless about most of these brain regions still, and almost no brain area only does one thing.

Yeah, I was being a little facetious about NPR, but even they have to squeeze a complicated study down into two minutes or so of air time. Agreed about the brain "regions." I was just reading a book, possibly Dan Gilbert's wonderful Stumbling on Happiness, which took pains to note that for the most part, the whole idea that everybody's brain does the same things in the same highly specific locations is only a construct and not reality. If I hadn't fallen under the spell of an award-winning history professor in college, I would have majored in psych. I love it, and love reading accounts of experiments. I mentioned it in the books thread, but I've also recently been impressed by The Geography of Thought, by Richard E. Nisbett. You might like it if you haven't already read it.In fact, what I really wanted to write my thesis on in college (my college required a thesis for an undergraduate degree) was how the brain encodes political notions. Unfortunately, when I was in college, the state of the art study was on how the brain encodes "chair" and various degrees of "chairness" versus "non-chair." [it was a pretty landmark study; you probably know the one I mean.] My professor conceded that while psych would eventually start studying political ideas, it wasn't there yet. New College had a very small psych department, so rather than going on to pioneer that research myself, I shifted to history and wrote my thesis on American propaganda during World War II, because propaganda was still the place where history, sociology, and psych intersected. If we'd had a bigger department or he'd been more encouraging, I might be blenderizing rat brains right now. Come to think of it, as easily queasy as I am, maybe that's good thing.If you ever need a subject for fMRI, I'd love to do that. But I guess you've got grad students aplenty.

[vbnautilus 48]

Yeah, I was being a little facetious about NPR, but even they have to squeeze a complicated study down into two minutes or so of air time. Agreed about the brain "regions." I was just reading a book, possibly Dan Gilbert's wonderful Stumbling on Happiness, which took pains to note that for the most part, the whole idea that everybody's brain does the same things in the same highly specific locations is only a construct and not reality.

There's a lot of variation for sure... especially when it comes to the more complex things. For basic sensory processing, I can be pretty sure where to find it in everyone's brain, but when it comes to something more abstract, it gets much harder.

If I hadn't fallen under the spell of an award-winning history professor in college, I would have majored in psych. I love it, and love reading accounts of experiments. I mentioned it in the books thread, but I've also recently been impressed by The Geography of Thought, by Richard E. Nisbett. You might like it if you haven't already read it.

Nisbett is a really smart guy.

In fact, what I really wanted to write my thesis on in college (my college required a thesis for an undergraduate degree) was how the brain encodes political notions. Unfortunately, when I was in college, the state of the art study was on how the brain encodes "chair" and various degrees of "chairness" versus "non-chair." [it was a pretty landmark study; you probably know the one I mean.] My professor conceded that while psych would eventually start studying political ideas, it wasn't there yet. New College had a very small psych department, so rather than going on to pioneer that research myself, I shifted to history and wrote my thesis on American propaganda during World War II, because propaganda was still the place where history, sociology, and psych intersected. If we'd had a bigger department or he'd been more encouraging, I might be blenderizing rat brains right now. Come to think of it, as easily queasy as I am, maybe that's good thing.If you ever need a subject for fMRI, I'd love to do that. But I guess you've got grad students aplenty.

Well if you are ever in L.A. and want to get scanned definitely let me know. I actually have done a study or two on political thought in the brain (mine might have been the first ever published?)... so you were certainly ahead of your time. Here's an article from the Washington Post on our study from a few years ago:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6073000579.html

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I agree, but the fact is that we now have very effective methods of pychotherapy for many of the common things people experience. For example, my wife does cognitive-behavioral therapy for anxiety disorders, and its very very effective. People actually get better in a reasonable amount of time. The problem is that the public is not educated about this; they still think therapy means sitting on a couch talking about your mother for the rest of your life, and they often seek out therapists who do this rather than going to people who practice empirically supported treatments.

I am a huge St. Louis Cardinals baseball fan. This past winter the Cardinals acquired a free agent from the San Diego Padres organization, a shortstop named Khalil Greene. Khalil had been successful all through his short major league career. I remember watching him play against the Cardinals as he always seemed to beat up on our pitchers. Last season with the Padres, Khalil went in a slump early in the year and was never able to recover. He dropped from one of the most productive shortstops in the league to the bottom of the pack. His season was cut short when he punched a locker after a bad game, broke his hand, and landed on the Disabled list for the remainder of the year. He wasn't offered a contract by San Diego, and the Cardinals signed him during the off season to a high dollar contract. I remember being very excited by the signing. The Cardinals needed an upgrade at shortstop and Khalil seemed like a perfect fit. I knew about his bad year but I also knew about the several productive seasons he had previously. I agreed with the Cardinals organization that a change of scenery would probably be enough to give him a new beginning and get him rolling again, after all, even hall of fame players have had off years. Things seemed to be working well. In spring training where the games don't mean anything, Khalil excelled and looked like his old self. Cardinal fans were excited about what Khalil would be able to add to an offense that already hails the games best player, Albert Pujols. The season got underway in April and Khalil was average for the first couple of weeks, though he uncharacteristically made several errors at shortstop. He then began slumping at the plate. He never seemed to get out of his funk. Some of his teammates leaked to the media that they were concerned about Khalil's well being. They had witnessed him, yelling at and beating on his self to such an extent that they genuinely felt he was in danger. He was seen leaving the clubhouse bleeding on at least one occasion that was reported. All the details have never been laid out, but sketchy reports allow us to read between the lines. Khalil was suffering from anxiety which were causing panic attacks. He had always suffered with this but it had gotten worse last year in San Diego and was even worse yet this year with the Cardinals. He stated that it was "exhausting" trying to keep himself from blowing up when he failed. He had an overwhelming compulsion to punish himself. Khalil, who is described by teammates as quiet, polite, and introspective, agreed to go on the disabled list and seek professional help for his "condition"After three weeks, it was announced that Khalil was going to go on a rehab assignment in the minor leagues and that he was being switched from shortstop to 3rd base. The reason given was that 3rd base was a position where there is less responsibility, and was a position in which reacting quickly was most important. Khalil made his return last weekend in Kansas City. He hit home runs in all three games he played, and has played outstanding at 3rd base. It was announced that Khalil suffers from a social anxiety disorder. I find a couple of things fascinating. The most surprising thing to me is how open both the Cardinals and Khalil have been. Secondly I am surprised at how much he has been helped already. Everyone understands that there are going to be ups and downs that he is going to have to cope with, but I hope that this will help the public understand how really debilitating these things can get and that there is help out there. I have family members and friends that suffer with these and similar issues and most have never once been to seek any kind of treatment. They don't want to be labeled a nut. Instead many times they self medicate with alcohol, drugs, or withdraw from interacting socially all together. Anyway I guess I should have started another thread, but I thought maybe the OP would be interested in this too, so I went ahead and posted it here. Khalil Greene thanks Cardinals for their supportBy Derrick GooldST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH06/23/2009NEW YORK — Fresh from his three-homer weekend, infielder Khalil Greene said it was his club's unflinching support during his time on the disabled list that galvanized his resolve to not only return to the Cardinals, but repay them.A bruise on his right knee from a pitch late in Sunday's game at Kansas City had calmed enough that Greene started Monday for the fourth consecutive game at his new position, third base. Before the game at Citi Field, he described the role his teammates and others played in facilitating his return from the DL stint to address debilitating anxiety, a condition he felt contributed to a difficult ending with his former team."Given my experience in San Diego wasn't a great one, that left a bitter taste in my mouth," Greene said. "It felt like the trust factor had been shattered. On the micro-level aspect of it, that didn't involve the clubhouse, but I really felt soured by that. Here, obviously, they want me to contribute, but at the same time I felt a genuine sympathy for my well being. ... I wanted to respond to that."

[antistuff 0]

i had the weirdest dream about jesus when i was little. i was probably around 8 or 9.i lived in this apartment building in queens and it was connected to all these buildings by this whole system of alleyways. as kids we used to play a lot back there.so one night i had a dream. for whatever reason i can't remember jesus was being crucified in the alleyways behind my apartment. i didn't like this so i decided to save him. once it got all dark out i snook back there and helped him down from his cross. he got away and kind of disappeared out of my dream but whoever put him up there somebody saw me. so i spent the rest of my dream running away from these lunatics who wanted to put a piece of cheese behind my eye because apparently that was the punishment for what i did. and everybody was just like danny let them do it its not that big of a deal but i kept running and running and eventually i woke up. it was a very weird dream.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

A piece of cheese behind your eye? That's good dream stuff.I did not dream about Jesus specifically last night, but I dreamt a snippet of hymn.I was singing in the shower. I dumped about twice as much shampoo as I needed into my hand and noticed that the scent was called "unemployed." What I was singing was the last two lines of a verse and the chorus of a hymn. I don't know if this hymn exists at all or not (a little help, believers???), but I'm pretty sure the two lines of the verse won't be found in any hymnbook, since they show rather a bit of ambivalence at being Christian. It had a country-music kind of sound. Here it is:What have I lost now that I'm found?What do I now not see?(chorus)Living through fear has made me strongLiving through sin has made me wrongLiving through joy has made me yours,Living through prayer has made me pure.What this forum really needs is a dream interpretation thread. I think I'll start one in General OT.And damn it, I think Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

i had the weirdest dream about jesus when i was little. i was probably around 8 or 9.i lived in this apartment building in queens and it was connected to all these buildings by this whole system of alleyways. as kids we used to play a lot back there.so one night i had a dream. for whatever reason i can't remember jesus was being crucified in the alleyways behind my apartment. i didn't like this so i decided to save him. once it got all dark out i snook back there and helped him down from his cross. he got away and kind of disappeared out of my dream but whoever put him up there somebody saw me. so i spent the rest of my dream running away from these lunatics who wanted to put a piece of cheese behind my eye because apparently that was the punishment for what i did. and everybody was just like danny let them do it its not that big of a deal but i kept running and running and eventually i woke up. it was a very weird dream.

It strikes me that for a lot of the non-believers or skeptics who do dream about Jesus (since we seem to be the only ones who do), a common theme is trying to save him, help him, or prevent his death in some way. That alone is very interesting.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

Like the title says, do believers ever dream about Jesus? If so, what's he doing or saying?I've dreamt about him a couple of times. Once was when I was reading the bible, and he embraced me and said everything was fine.Then recently, there was this long involved dream where a group of people I was in was being chased by vampires. I was more or less the leader. Jesus was also in the group and he asked us to sacrifice him so we could get away. This involved jamming a stake through his heart, a la Buffy. The idea was that the vampires would feast on his blood and give the rest of us a chance to run. Nobody could quite bring themselves to kill Jesus, though, so I wound up going over to the lead vampire and offering my own neck instead.The whole theory of dreaming says that if you think about something frequently during the day, you'll dream about it at night. If Christians think about Jesus much at all, it would only stand to reason that they would dream about him pretty often. Yet I've never heard any Christians talk about Jesus popping up in their dreams. Why not? No dreams about Jesus, ever, or not willing to talk about the Lord of Hosts and Prince of Peace and all that hanging around doing wacky dream things?

I don't agree with your premise. It is true that something that weighs on your mind during the day may have effect on your dreams. I don't think even the most devout Christians would dream about Jesus a lot.

Recurrent dreams sometimes represent the subconscious trying to resolve fragmentation of the personality. So someone who kept dreaming about Jesus would probably be stuggling with some sort of god complex.

After going back and reading my post quoted above, I realize it is hard to make sense out of and the God complex comment is just silly. Disregard. If you dream about the same thing over and over it often is your subconscious trying to resolve a conflict between two aspects of the personality. In a recurrent dream, it is important to remember that every character and object in your dream is a construct of your subconscious. So if someone had a recurrent dream about Jesus, for instance, Jesus would represent part of the conflict. He could represent different things for different people. I have never dreamed about Jesus(that I remember) I have dreamed a few times about the spirit of God which at different times has been a source of condemnation for behaviors I had been showing, (usually involving living selfishly). At other times it has been a source of comfort from fears I had been experiencing. I think about poker all the time and I have only had a few very brief dreams about poker. Nothing I could make any sense out of. <<(vb is it ok for me to end by sentence like this). If not then, "nothing of which I could make any sense.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

A piece of cheese behind your eye? That's good dream stuff.I did not dream about Jesus specifically last night, but I dreamt a snippet of hymn.I was singing in the shower. I dumped about twice as much shampoo as I needed into my hand and noticed that the scent was called "unemployed." What I was singing was the last two lines of a verse and the chorus of a hymn. I don't know if this hymn exists at all or not (a little help, believers???), but I'm pretty sure the two lines of the verse won't be found in any hymnbook, since they show rather a bit of ambivalence at being Christian. It had a country-music kind of sound. Here it is:What have I lost now that I'm found?What do I now not see?(chorus)Living through fear has made me strongLiving through sin has made me wrongLiving through joy has made me yours,Living through prayer has made me pure.What this forum really needs is a dream interpretation thread. I think I'll start one in General OT.And damn it, I think Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

lol, I too have dreamed up some pretty good songs.(at least they sounded great in my dreams.Your right about the dream interpretaion thread. Please start one. Several years ago there was an excellent website on dream interpretation. Today they are all tied into astology and fortune telling mumbo jumbo. If you know of a good site please let me know.

[vbnautilus 48]

In a recurrent dream, it is important to remember that every character and object in your dream is a construct of your subconscious.

In my opinion, one of the mistakes people make in interpreting dreams is to assume that everything is meaningful. Yes, there can be meaningful things in dreams, but there is also a huge random element. One of the better theories of the neuroscience of dreaming is that the random bursts of activity that originate in the brain stem during sleep create random patterns of activity in the cerebral cortex that are subsequently interpreted. Thus, its kind of like a big rorschach test -- you do tend to interpret things in a way that is relevant to what's on your mind, but on the other hand sometimes that blot really is shaped like an elephant, and the appearance of the elephant in your dream does not mean you have anxiety about the length of your nose.

I think about poker all the time and I have only had a few very brief dreams about poker. Nothing I could make any sense out of. <<(vb is it ok for me to end by sentence like this). If not then, "nothing of which I could make any sense.

lol, by all means!

[Zealous Donkey 0]

In my opinion, one of the mistakes people make in interpreting dreams is to assume that everything is meaningful. Yes, there can be meaningful things in dreams, but there is also a huge random element. One of the better theories of the neuroscience of dreaming is that the random bursts of activity that originate in the brain stem during sleep create random patterns of activity in the cerebral cortex that are subsequently interpreted. Thus, its kind of like a big rorschach test -- you do tend to interpret things in a way that is relevant to what's on your mind, but on the other hand sometimes that blot really is shaped like an elephant, and the appearance of the elephant in your dream does not mean you have anxiety about the length of your nose. lol, by all means!

yes, i understand and agree with you. Would you agree that the most effective form a dream interpretation has been in identifying conflicts by interpreting recurrent dreams? We actually studied and did some of this in mental health training I went through several years ago. It seemed at the time to have potential, but that was a long time ago and things may have progressed beyond that kind of thing now.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Clearly, VB and I need to run this dream interpretation thread. I'll be all Freudian and he'll shoot down all of it as horseshit.

[Spademan 94]

Well, clearly thinking about something all day, day after day can make said thing a focus of your dreams.When I was playing chess all day every day when I was like 9 I used to play chess games in my dreams all the time.Most of my dreams are of me fighting aliens or villains while occasionally wielding some sort of superhuman ability. So, still pretty much just influenced by day to day affairs.

[antistuff 0]

It strikes me that for a lot of the non-believers or skeptics who do dream about Jesus (since we seem to be the only ones who do), a common theme is trying to save him, help him, or prevent his death in some way. That alone is very interesting.

thinking back about it (granted this was a long time ago) i don't think it was so much about saving him as it was about changing something that i didn't like or fixing something. when i was that young im pretty sure i believed in the whole god and jesus thing (sort of, i didn't really understand exactly what a big deal it is in your life if you do believe in that but we went to church and all that).