Jeepster80125 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hey all, my buddy Rico Ramirez placed third last night in event #28 after holding 65% of the chips in play late at the final table.Here's the hand that cost him his tournament life. Rico Ramirez Eliminated in 3rd Place ($261,963)Mike Eise raised to 300,000 from the button and Rico Ramirez made the call from the big blind.The flop fell down K J J and both players checked the see the 9 fall on the turn. Ramirez lead out for 725,000 only to have Eise move all in. Ramirez called and the cards were tabled.Ramirez: J 4 Eise: 9 9 With Ramirez needing to improve to a full house to stay alive, the 10 on the river would be not what he was looking for, and consequently headed to the rail in 3rd place for a $261,963 payday.Some of our friends are saying he should have bet out on that flop, while others are saying he was right to check to get as much value out of the hand as possible.Here's the link to the live updates at the final table.Thoughts on the hand? Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Fold pre?And nothing is wrong with the flop check, imo. Button will fire a c-bet a lot. Link to post Share on other sites
larons 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Fold pre, raise that flop, but what do I know? Link to post Share on other sites
lurbz 2 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hey all, my buddy Rico Ramirez placed third last night in event #28 after holding 65% of the chips in play late at the final table.Here's the hand that cost him his tournament life.Some of our friends are saying he should have bet out on that flop, while others are saying he was right to check to get as much value out of the hand as possible.Here's the link to the live updates at the final table.Thoughts on the hand?imo betting that flop draws a raise anyway. sick cooler but no real way to avoid it Link to post Share on other sites
CaneBrain 95 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I dont mind taking off a flop by calling preflop and I dont mind checking the flop. Just a tough turn card. You have to take a chance once in a while at a final table.If your buddy had 65% of the chips at one point and went out in 3rd then there was probably a hand before this one that was much more crucial/damaging.3rd place is still pretty awesome. Link to post Share on other sites
XXEddie 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Fold pre, raise that flop, but what do I know?You should know that it is impossible to raise when nobody bets. Link to post Share on other sites
Mayoster 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Damned if you do damned if you dont, but I wouldnt give a free card here. Too many danger cards out there. Bet the flop big. What better flop are you looking for when you call with J 4?But congrats to Rico! Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 WHA?!?!I don't see how anyone saying that he "should" bet the flop isn't being totally results oriented.I think it's fine 3 handed to see a flop, and i think it's clearly fine to check ahead here. Three handed play ranges are way wide. Sure the 9 on the turn isn't a great card to see, but it's not THAT bad (in my world of ranges including all the way down to various numerical suited connectors, etc.), and just sucks that villian had 99.In the end I'm betting that 99 at least calls whatever bet your boy puts down on the flop anyways, so the real question is do you think your boy doesn't end up getting it all in the turn with his hand with even more chips in the pot now?The only way your buddy stays alive here (after calling pre) is if he pushes on the flop.....but I don't know if that's a profitable play....because so many hands are typically willing to fold here (although does entice someone to call light). I agree with noted above, I typically check fully expecting a C-Bet from the in position pre flop raiser. In reality my breakdown (on flop) here would probably be something like 60% check/ 35% bet 1/2-2/3rds pot/ 5% push.Tough break for him and GG. Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Starting stacks and how the table are playing are very important here.But I fold pre unless I have history and this guy has been raising everything pre flop 3 handedI lead trips on the flop because it looks like a steal. I think long term you get more value betting here.Nothing you can do once that turn comes, just ul. GG, WP, ETC... Link to post Share on other sites
Poker Addict 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 WHA?!?!I don't see how anyone saying that he "should" bet the flop isn't being totally results oriented.I think it's fine 3 handed to see a flop, and i think it's clearly fine to check ahead here. Three handed play ranges are way wide. Sure the 9 on the turn isn't a great card to see, but it's not THAT bad (in my world of ranges including all the way down to various numerical suited connectors, etc.), and just sucks that villian had 99.I think this is results oriented.As I said, a bet on that turn gets called by a huge range and in the long term I think you get more value. I could be wrong.But I need to know more, seeing a flop with suited J4 is looking for the perfect flop unless this guy is really weak post flop. And you got that perfect flop. I bet. He will call light because he won't believe you have the J - could even induce a raise. The 9 doesn't scare me and the chips are going in anyway at that point - just ul. Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I think this is results oriented.As I said, a bet on that turn gets called by a huge range and in the long term I think you get more value. I could be wrong.But I need to know more, seeing a flop with suited J4 is looking for the perfect flop unless this guy is really weak post flop. And you got that perfect flop. I bet. He will call light because he won't believe you have the J - could even induce a raise. The 9 doesn't scare me and the chips are going in anyway at that point - just ul.I was just coming on to edit my breakdown to more of a 50/50 between betting 2/3rds pot and checking. There is a huge range that at least calls the flop, I agree. I still say that OP's boy shouldn't hang head in shame though, because this is a situation where checking is absolutely fine too. Though I agree without knowing the Villian's table image, it's tough to say because that's the A-1 indicator of whether to check or bet this flop. Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Hey all, my buddy Rico Ramirez placed third last night in event #28 after holding 65% of the chips in play late at the final table.Here's the hand that cost him his tournament life.Some of our friends are saying he should have bet out on that flop, while others are saying he was right to check to get as much value out of the hand as possible.Here's the link to the live updates at the final table.Thoughts on the hand?What are the stack sizes and blind levels? Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 This is how I get bounced from tournies all the time. Wahmbulance Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 It's a very draw heavy board, 100% bet the flop. I never slow play this hand on a board like that fwiw. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeepster80125 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 What are the stack sizes and blind levels?Pretty sure it was round 29, blinds 50k/100k. Rico had a huge stack, shortly before this hand he held over 7 million of 11.8 million in play.It might have been a round later, but the stack sizes were about the same. Link to post Share on other sites
bbgun 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 You should know that it is impossible to raise when nobody bets.He could be one of those people who call it a "raise" when someone opens the betting after the flop...I really dislike those people. Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Pretty sure it was round 29, blinds 50k/100k. Rico had a huge stack, shortly before this hand he held over 7 million of 11.8 million in play.It might have been a round later, but the stack sizes were about the same.He can't have 7 of 12 million of chips in play if this is his bust hand....unless I'm missing something. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I said "bet out" because you really have no clue what your opponent has. If you make a bet and get called, then you need to be wary and I really think you can get away from a hand like this if someone shoves over the top.A guy who pairs the K will stick around, but a bet will chase out most underpairs. Link to post Share on other sites
Jeepster80125 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Author Share Posted June 16, 2009 He can't have 7 of 12 million of chips in play if this is his bust hand....unless I'm missing something.He had that many chips in the level prior to his bustout. If you look at the live updates, he lost a large pot just before this. Rico called an all in with A8, villain had A9. Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Pretty sure it was round 29, blinds 50k/100k. Rico had a huge stack, shortly before this hand he held over 7 million of 11.8 million in play.It might have been a round later, but the stack sizes were about the same.2.9mil? If so, it's def a fold PF, I would think. Link to post Share on other sites
Fade2241 0 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 2.9mil? If so, it's def a fold PF, I would think.That's debatable but you have to bet that flop! No way I am giving a free card on that board, that's a good way to end up where the OP's friend did. Link to post Share on other sites
kobe2odom8 14 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 That's debatable but you have to bet that flop! No way I am giving a free card on that board, that's a good way to end up where the OP's friend did.lol, results oriented much? Link to post Share on other sites
Tehtoe 3 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 I said "bet out" because you really have no clue what your opponent has. If you make a bet and get called, then you need to be wary and I really think you can get away from a hand like this if someone shoves over the top.A guy who pairs the K will stick around, but a bet will chase out most underpairs.Betting to "find out where you are at" is the worst reasoning of all time. Bets are designed to extract value or to be bluffs.Checking is perfectly fine on this board, if we're chasing out underpairs and only getting kings and hands that beat us to stick around by leading it's prob not great. 3 handed ranges are A LOT wider than any of you are giving credit for.Villain in this hand should be c-betting basically most of his range if checked to. He really shouldn't be checking too often so it's not like you're giving a "free card", and besides, like I said before, ranges are wayyyy wider 3 handed. I'd def check and let him barrel, and prob check most turns and reevaluate.Lots of results oriented thinking ITT. Link to post Share on other sites
kobe2odom8 14 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 well put tyler Link to post Share on other sites
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