Weird Situation - 5.40 Don Sng On Stars

[ddudley 0]

Weird situation... Double or nothing SNG with 6 players left (5 get paid). I'm a big stack and the BB has 4 big blinds left (one is already in the pot). I open for 600 w/ AKs, trying to let the rest of the table know that I have a good hand and also knowing the BB will call with almost anything. I've been getting a lot of good hands so I've been playing more hands than average, probably 30% or so. The button decides to make my life difficult, see below....PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.40 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds 15 Ante (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comCO (t2095)Button (t1145)SB (t2390)BB (t605)Hero (UTG) (t4285)MP (t4480)Hero's M: 13.60Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , A Hero bets t600, 2 folds, Button raises to t1130 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t440 (All-In)So it's 530 to call and there's $2,335 in the pot. I'm getting over 4:1 here. Hero should call or fold? and why?EDIT: I had recently read an article detailing a fold of AA in a similar situation. The article is in the CardPlayer with Huck Seed on the Cover (April 8, 2009, Vol 22, No. 7, page 40-41). As far as I can tell, there's no online version available at this time.

[potatoman 0]

Hero should call or fold? and why?Call. Good odds obviously. Increase the chances of eliminating the short stack. DoN or not, folding would be moronic, right? Seriously, am I missing something here?

[pangloss 0]

um this is a snap call for sure.you have both players covered.you only have to beat one of two to get you all paid.double or nothing tourny right?

[ddudley 0]

um this is a snap call for sure.you have both players covered.you only have to beat one of two to get you all paid.double or nothing tourny right?

Ya, DoN... That's what I thought. I was concerned that I would be making some kind of equity screw up. I read an article about this online SNG player who was explaining how she folded Aces in a similar situation and how it was the correct fold. But, I pretty much didn't understand anything they presenting in the article.

[cdipierr 0]

Call AINEC. Even if you lose to 1 of the 2 players, you still cash. The only way you don't cash in this hand is if BB beats you both and button beats you, but even in that case BB ends up with 1.8k and button is still short with 1.1k while you're left with 3.1k.As for the AA fold you mention, this is only correct in a spot where there's 1 or 2 small stacks all in, and a big stack that's called them that also has you covered.

[TrueAce13 18]

I might break my mouse making this call tbh

[Lee_LightsOut_B 0]

I am calling so fast i am going to drive the button on my mouse so far thru my desk that i am going to have to pick it out of my leg ..... It is a DON tourney you have both well covered and are in no danger of going out ..... The article which you refer to about folding AA preflop refers to Super Satallite Tourneys right on the bubble with Garunteed Seats given to the remaing players and one of the shovers that shoved over the short stack has you covered .....

[kkot 0]

I like open folding preflop and hitting the sit out button

[XXEddie 0]

The fact that you are debating a fold makes me want to punt a baby

[Chet Chetterson 0]

You can make this call. Even in the worst case scenario where both stacks double up you are still multiple orbits worth of blinds/antes ahead of both stacks.

[SwolyswoND 1]

The fact that you are debating a fold makes me want to punt a baby

Hey, Ike, kick the baby!No, don't kick the baby....

[SwolyswoND 1]

Ya, DoN... That's what I thought. I was concerned that I would be making some kind of equity screw up. I read an article about this online SNG player who was explaining how she folded Aces in a similar situation and how it was the correct fold. But, I pretty much didn't understand anything they presenting in the article.

Um, folding AA getting 4:1 against two all-ins is never ever ever ever the right play, whether in a satellite, SNG, WSOP, anything. Unless it's a 2-7 lowball game.

[TrueAce13 18]

I like open folding preflop and hitting the sit out button

This is something I actually do in these DON tournys. Once I get a decent stack, I just let everyone else fight for the money

[Yahkin 0]

The fact that you are debating a fold makes me want to punt a baby

+1

[gooch 0]

okay i understand the bubble super satellite arguement having gone out with QQ, KK, AA and more hands than I can ever imaging to the likes of J8, Q3, K2 etc, but i don't understand how this is anything less than a call?

[ddudley 0]

The fact that you are debating a fold makes me want to punt a baby

Um, folding AA getting 4:1 against two all-ins is never ever ever ever the right play, whether in a satellite, SNG, WSOP, anything. Unless it's a 2-7 lowball game.

okay i understand the bubble super satellite arguement having gone out with QQ, KK, AA and more hands than I can ever imaging to the likes of J8, Q3, K2 etc, but i don't understand how this is anything less than a call?

I had just read the article in CardPlayer with Huck Seed on the Cover (April, 8 2009, Vol 22, No. 7, page 40-41). For some reason it's in the print version but I can't find it online so no link. Anyway, "Jeanifear" goes over a similar hand in great detail where she indicates it was the correct play to fold AA in a 18 man SNG. With 4 people left and the other 3 basically all-in for more than she has in her stack. So, she had $1,945 and there was more than $5,835 in the pot. She's getting 3:1 there and folded AA and says it was the correct play.Perhaps someone could post a summary of the hand for a more exact discussion?It's not the exact same situation but it was similar enough to give me pause about calling. Luckily, I'm not nearly that good, so such complex thinking doesn't clutter my brain.

[cdipierr 0]

I haven't read the article in question, but reading a quick summary on another board, basically the situation she described was:4 handed in an 18 man SnGP1 - Maniac chip leaderP2, P3, Hero - All solid, short stacks (about the same)P1 pushes, P2 calls, P3 calls, and Hero has AA in the BB.Having not read the article, I'd assume the argument to be that AA is about 55-60% against a random maniac hand and a decent (broadway, pair) P2 and P3 . Assuming she's the shortest of the 3 short stacks, this mean there's a 40-45% chance she's getting 4th place money. If she doesn't get involved, she automatically moves up a money spot at least (1 spot if P3 or P4 win, 2 spots if maniac wins). And if maniac wins, it's fairly easy to get your money in about the same % against him heads up anyway.But to be clear, this is a VERY specific spot.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Even so, I think folding is terrible in that situation. Your primary goal in a SNG is cashing, to be sure. But once you've cracked the bubble, you immediately play for 1st place, not to move up money spots. (This differs from a MTT where you don't play to cash first.) Since the players were already in the money of this 18 man SNG, folding AA there is god-awful. If she calls she is a favorite to quadruple up and take 1st place most likely.

[RISEorFall 0]

Since the players were already in the money of this 18 man SNG, folding AA there is god-awful. If she calls she is a favorite to quadruple up and take 1st place most likely.

this.it more sounds like she just wanted to look smart, and instead cost herself a ton of equity and good shot at having a ton of chips to take 1st.now if there were 5 players left instead of 4 and she was shorty with 2 or 3 players all in, then we can talk.

[ddudley 0]

Even so, I think folding is terrible in that situation. Your primary goal in a SNG is cashing, to be sure. But once you've cracked the bubble, you immediately play for 1st place, not to move up money spots. (This differs from a MTT where you don't play to cash first.) Since the players were already in the money of this 18 man SNG, folding AA there is god-awful. If she calls she is a favorite to quadruple up and take 1st place most likely.

That's what I was thinking too. Already cashed, time to crush these dudes with Aces.

[kkot 0]

Even so, I think folding is terrible in that situation. Your primary goal in a SNG is cashing, to be sure. But once you've cracked the bubble, you immediately play for 1st place, not to move up money spots. (This differs from a MTT where you don't play to cash first.) Since the players were already in the money of this 18 man SNG, folding AA there is god-awful. If she calls she is a favorite to quadruple up and take 1st place most likely.

Now necessarily. We play to win the most money, not for the most 1sts. Sometimes situations come up where you fold +cEV spots ITM because they are -$EV. In 18 man SNGs the bubble from 5 to 4 is the same as the bubble from 4 to 3, 3 to 2, and 2 to 1. This should make all of these 'bubbles' more similar than in an STT.

[SwolyswoND 1]

Yes, we play to win the most $, but that's exactly my point. Once you've cashed, you don't just sit back and let the others duke it out to move up from 4th to 3rd, while giving you no real chance to take the top prize. It's more $EV to take a chance (albeit, one that is supported by the math and situation) that might bust you in 4th, but also might give you a commanding chip lead and/or a great chance to win or at least get 2nd.

[kkot 0]

I'm not saying that we should pass up on every edge to try to sneak into 3rd place. But Some really marginal cEV spots might be folds based on $EV.

[RISEorFall 0]

I'm not saying that we should pass up on every edge to try to sneak into 3rd place. But Some really marginal cEV spots might be folds based on $EV.

sure, but this isn't really marginal. ~40% equity in a 4 way pot is pretty big. give us JJ or AK and ok, our equity might drop enough for it to be marginal, but not with AA.

[SwolyswoND 1]

sure, but this isn't really marginal. ~40% equity in a 4 way pot is pretty big. give us JJ or AK and ok, our equity might drop enough for it to be marginal, but not with AA.

+1