Please Discuss

[rcgs59 15]

what would you do on the flop? go all in or fold please give rationalPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comOutput for Format: fcp to Copy/Paste From 2009-04-29 14:31:19FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):--------------------------------------------------------------------------------PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG (t6212)UTG+1 (t13030)MP1 (t1000)MP2 (t2420)CO (t945)Hero (Button) (t4990)SB (t3405)BB (t1215)Hero's M: 22.18Preflop: Hero is Button with 8 , 9 UTG bets t300, 4 folds, Hero calls t300, 2 foldsFlop: (t825) 7 , 4 , 10 (2 players)UTG bets t1200,

[FARGOpokerND 22]

You have 9 high. I fold this flop every day. Flushes and straights only come 8% of the time, so you are 16% to catch. I assume he has TT here like...93% of the time. So based off those odds, he is about 40% to hit a full house. Based off those odds, you get NEGATIVE odds if you call!Fold!

[kobe2odom8 14]

You have 9 high. I fold this flop every day. Flushes and straights only come 8% of the time, so you are 16% to catch. I assume he has TT here like...93% of the time. So based off those odds, he is about 40% to hit a full house. Based off those odds, you get NEGATIVE odds if you call!Fold!

wow, thats some 8th level thinking.

[melaskins 0]

I can't help myself, I have to ask. Why even play that hand? Even with the button and a minraise, fold and move on before the flop.

[rcgs59 15]

I can't help myself, I have to ask. Why even play that hand? Even with the button and a minraise, fold and move on before the flop.

1. suited connectors2. button position3. utg mini raise4. I had decent chip stack above average and had not called in a while5. preflop it was a gamble, and if the flop was not good I would fold only losing 300.6. if the SB or BB raised I was out of there.I will post the outcome later

[Shark527 0]

I can't help myself, I have to ask. Why even play that hand? Even with the button and a minraise, fold and move on before the flop.

You play for flops like that.Overbetting the flop like that in micro stakes is sometimes stone bluff trying to bully you off the pot. I think this is AK a lot so your 8,9's are also live. I would shove and hope to take the pot right on the flop, and even if he calls, your a favorite.

[Stiles2004 0]

You play for flops like that.Overbetting the flop like that in micro stakes is sometimes stone bluff trying to bully you off the pot. I think this is AK a lot so your 8,9's are also live. I would shove and hope to take the pot right on the flop, and even if he calls, your a favorite.

Agreed

[HighwayStar 8]

Snap shove.Pf is fine

[TheDonk1989 0]

Even if he has a set you have like 35% on the flop and 29% on the turn to win.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

OK, Rose, here is a serious answer for you (since you of course believed what I was saying int he 1st post)You shove here all day long.You'd be shoving 3500 into a pot that has about 3200ish so it is a perfect shoving stack. You are putting in 4700 more total to win 10200 so you need 4700/10200=46% equity to call, or else in easier terms, you need to be a 46% favorite or better to win the hand to be correctly putting money in.If he ONLY does this with a set (TT,77,44) then:Board: Ts 7h 4hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 39.652% 39.65% 00.00% 3533 0.00 { 9h8h }Hand 1: 60.348% 60.35% 00.00% 5377 0.00 { TT, 77, 44 }You would incorrectly be putting money in because you are 39.6% favorite to win (explained for those who can't read Pokerstove outputs)Now, assuming he ONLY does this with an overpair (JJ-AA)Board: Ts 7h 4hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 52.235% 52.23% 00.00% 12411 0.00 { 9h8h }Hand 1: 47.765% 47.77% 00.00% 11349 0.00 { JJ+ }You are 52% favorite to win, so it is correct to shove.Now add in sets, and possible hands a donk may minraise with (ATo, KTo, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs)Board: Ts 7h 4hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 49.258% 49.26% 00.00% 30722 0.00 { 9h8h }Hand 1: 50.742% 50.74% 00.00% 31648 0.00 { TT+, 77, 44, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, ATo, KTo }Now add in random hands he may bet and then fold if you shove (AK AQ 99 88 66 55 for now)Board: Ts 7h 4hDead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 55.911% 55.86% 00.05% 62494 54.00 { 9h8h }Hand 1: 44.089% 44.04% 00.05% 49268 54.00 { 44+, AQs+, ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, AQo+, ATo, KTo }I think hes not likely going to bet 1200 with a set, but he also would unlikely bet 1200 with random bluffs, so IDK, I put them both in to balance out the "IDK's"Rose, you need to post player reads too. You say you are a reader of players, so if that is factually correct then you should be able to tell us some reads on this player. Has he done this before? Has he shown down other hands before? How did he play THOSE hands?Use all the info at your disposal to make a calculated decision.Just know....never fold open ended straight and flush draw when you are not that deep (30 blinds isn't deep) and a shove all in isn't that much more than pot. Just get it in there because you are never that far behind.

[rcgs59 15]

he just joined our table about 3 hands before this play. so it was hard to get reads on him. The other thing is I am good at reading players at live play not so good on internet play. With his bet of 1200 I was putting him on at least a pair of tens or pocket pair of JJ's or higher or even a set. With the flop I was sitting pretty enough to beat a possible set, with a flush or a opened ended straight. with the turn and river to come. poker is a gamble just wanted to see what people would of done, with there thoughts behind it. I will post the outcome and what I did later.

[Danege 1]

he just joined our table about 3 hands before this play. so it was hard to get reads on him. The other thing is I am good at reading players at live play not so good on internet play. With his bet of 1200 I was putting him on at least a pair of tens or pocket pair of JJ's or higher or even a set. With the flop I was sitting pretty enough to beat a possible set, with a flush or a opened ended straight. with the turn and river to come. poker is a gamble just wanted to see what people would of done, with there thoughts behind it. I will post the outcome and what I did later.

You don't need reads when you have this hand on this flop.

[Gibby 0]

When you called with this hand, what were you hoping to hit? To me, and I am far from an expert, if you are going to play with these hands, you just flopped the world for it, shove and enjoy the ride. If you don't want these decisions and to put yourself at risk on a draw, simply don't play these hands.

[donk4life 34]

Let me guess, you min-raised, he shoved, and you folded

[melaskins 0]

When you called with this hand, what were you hoping to hit? To me, and I am far from an expert, if you are going to play with these hands, you just flopped the world for it, shove and enjoy the ride. If you don't want these decisions and to put yourself at risk on a draw, simply don't play these hands.

Which was my point earlier. If you are going to call even a minraise with this hand, there shouldn't be any question what you are going to do with this flop. If two of your suit is on the board, isn't that what you wanted. If getting 4 flushed causes you to be scared that he may have a better flush(which is possible) then you should fold to the minraise before the flop. With this flop, you're firing a double barrel 12 gauge. The only other flop you could hope for is 998.For the hand, I figure you either called and hit one of your draws to win or pushed and hit over a set.

[HighwayStar 8]

Playing 89s here is quite marginal but I think it's probably ok. Any shallower of a stack size and I'm just tossing it.

[Biff Goods 0]

It's a simple thought...If you are gonna play this hand in this position with this many chips you have to be willing to push this flop every time. It gives you two chances to win. (they fold, you hit). If you are not willing to push this flop...then don't play the 89suited for a raise from UTG. No matter what the size of the raise.

[Whatever 1]

poker is a gamble

New sig.

[GreeneStreet 0]

Fold pf. As played definite shove.

[rcgs59 15]

When you called with this hand, what were you hoping to hit? To me, and I am far from an expert, if you are going to play with these hands, you just flopped the world for it, shove and enjoy the ride. If you don't want these decisions and to put yourself at risk on a draw, simply don't play these hands.

as fluff's signature goes I am a suited connector donkey, with a decent stack size and good positioning of being on the button

Let me guess, you min-raised, he shoved, and you folded

you guessed wrong

[nas061000 0]

I'm liking a shove. You're on what we call the monster, 13 outs at the flop... though you do only have 9 high, his hand stinks of an overbet with something like an Ace high to try and buy the pot. If he's got nothing but a high card, then you have even more outs because you could also pair.

[rcgs59 15]

Output for Format: fcp to Copy/Paste From 2009-04-29 14:31:19FTR Hand History Converter Output (intended for copying and pasting into poker forums!):PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comUTG (t6212)UTG+1 (t13030)MP1 (t1000)MP2 (t2420)CO (t945)Hero (Button) (t4990)SB (t3405)BB (t1215)Hero's M: 22.18Preflop: Hero is Button with 8 , 9 UTG bets t300, 4 folds, Hero calls t300, 2 foldsFlop: (t825) 7 , 4 , 10 (2 players)UTG bets t1200, Hero calls t1200Turn: (t3225) 10 (2 players)UTG bets t4712 (All-In), Hero calls t3490 (All-In)River: (t10205) K (2 players, 2 all-in)Total pot: t10205Results Hero had 8 , 9 (one pair, tens).UTG had K , K (full house, Kings over tens).Outcome: UTG won t10205[/color]Okay here was the mistakes I made I should of raised all in on his bet on the flop instead of calling the flop. What I did was call the flop then went all in on the turn seeing the second ten on the turn, knowing that he most likely now could have a chance at a possible boat, I decided to still go all in. Outcome was of course he hit his boat on the river and I did not hit my flush or straight, but that's poker. What I learned was if I am faced with this type of situation again I will go all in on the flop.

[FARGOpokerND 22]

Okay here was the mistakes I made I should of raised all in on his bet on the flop instead of calling the flop. What I did was call the flop then went all in on the turn seeing the second ten on the turn, knowing that he most likely now could have a chance at a possible boat, I decided to still go all in. Outcome was of course he hit his boat on the river and I did not hit my flush or straight, but that's poker. What I learned was if I am faced with this type of situation again I will go all in on the flop.

To expand, basically the strategy behind shoving the flop is that we want to get our chips in with the best equity that we can. If you just call, and miss the turn, your odds are cut down significantly and being that you aren't THAT deep, it is unprofitable to continue if he bets large again. If you just call and turn brings a straight or flush card, he may be more reluctant to inflate the pot. For instance, if he has A-T here, the turn comes Qh, your action goes byebye because a 3rd heart has now come as well as an overcard to his AT so he may not be good anymore and he knows it.