Am I Going To Be Missing Value Here By Checking?

[AimHigher 0]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00+$0.50 Tournament, 200/400 Blinds 50 Ante (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comButton (t23255)SB (t13955)BB (t16051)UTG (t6516)UTG+1 (t40739)MP1 (t16513)MP2 (t11100)Hero (MP3) (t18030)CO (t9925)Hero's M: 17.17Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A , A 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t400, 2 folds, Hero bets t1600, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls t1200Flop: (t4250) 6 , J , A (2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t3200, UTG+1 calls t3200Turn: (t10650) J (2 players)UTG+1 checks, Hero checksVillain is 45/14 over 83 hands and there is a bit of history.During previous points of the tournament I had 3-bet him 3 times. He's the loosest player at the table currently. I'd 3-bet him with JJ 3 hands prior to this one. He'd spent a lot of time tanking and then timed down and folded. It's safe to say that he's getting tired of folding to me and probably wants to make a stand.I think I missed a bit of value preflop and should've made it 2k, but my main question is about the turn. The reason I checked it back was because I felt that if he was drawing to a flush and hit we'd get stacks in. I have about 13k behind on the turn. Do we think maybe making a smallish sized bet on the turn is better? Maybe we can induce?

[gooch 0]

check behind looks good to me, hope for a club and maybe a bluff

[SwolyswoND 1]

I think I missed a bit of value preflop and should've made it 2k, but my main question is about the turn. The reason I checked it back was because I felt that if he was drawing to a flush and hit we'd get stacks in. I have about 13k behind on the turn. Do we think maybe making a smallish sized bet on the turn is better? Maybe we can induce?

PF amount is good, IMO.I don't like the turn check. What did he call with on the flop that he now won't call with on the turn? TT or QQ? Any AQ/AK is most likely still calling, AJ/KJ thinks they have the nuts. Flush draw will stay in if you give the proper price.Waiting and hoping they hit the flush is flawed. They will put chips in on the turn to draw, but will not put them in on the river if they miss. They go in either way on the river if he hits, so why not just price him in on the turn so you still collect on a non-club river?I bet ~5-6k on the turn.

[BeaverStyle 1]

PF amount is good, IMO.I don't like the turn check. What did he call with on the flop that he now won't call with on the turn? TT or QQ? Any AQ/AK is most likely still calling, AJ/KJ thinks they have the nuts. Flush draw will stay in if you give the proper price.Waiting and hoping they hit the flush is flawed. They will put chips in on the turn to draw, but will not put them in on the river if they miss. They go in either way on the river if he hits, so why not just price him in on the turn so you still collect on a non-club river?I bet ~5-6k on the turn.

My thoughts exactly. I probably bet 5k, setting up an easy river shove.

[RISEorFall 0]

betting now so he puts money in with the flush draw is the way to goyou still get his stack or a large bet if he makes it, and maybe he thinks the J is a good bluff cardhe wont put in anymore with a flush draw if he misses, except for maybe a river bluff, but you can get that on the turn by betting

[oksijen 0]

exactly depends on your opponents style. if he is a loose one as you said, would be nice to make a half pot bet. otherwise check seems like a better option to trap him on river because you have position on him...

[SwolyswoND 1]

exactly depends on your opponents style. if he is a loose one as you said, would be nice to make a half pot bet. otherwise check seems like a better option to trap him on river because you have position on him...

You're pretty much ignoring everything that was posted earlier in the thread.If villain had a made hand on the flop, the turn won't make him fold. If he had a draw on the flop, he still has it on the turn, and you want to charge him for it b/c he will just c/f the river if he misses.I don't like speaking in absolutes, but there is no good reason to check back the turn here.

[oksijen 0]

You're pretty much ignoring everything that was posted earlier in the thread.If villain had a made hand on the flop, the turn won't make him fold. If he had a draw on the flop, he still has it on the turn, and you want to charge him for it b/c he will just c/f the river if he misses.I don't like speaking in absolutes, but there is no good reason to check back the turn here.

i didn't read whole answers in the thread just went down and replied. i couldn't get why this ignored you. whatever..

[XXEddie 0]

if ANYTHING the preflop raise is too big, imo. I guess it is fine with the limper in front but no reason to make it more than 1600. As others have said I bet 5k-ish.

[SGFULTON83 0]

Bet 5-6K on the turn, if villian's on the draw they will pay you. If you check and river bricks the villian you won't get anything so take it while it's there and hope villian hits the river.

[AimHigher 0]

For those fine with the preflop raise size, you guys realize there are antes, right? If I were to open pot it'd be 2250, so I don't think 2000 is too big or out of the question, especially against a station who's been setup to be value towned due to meta game.I'm glad to see others agree I screwed up the turn though. The river was a 9c. He check/called 7500 with A8.

[SwolyswoND 1]

For those fine with the preflop raise size, you guys realize there are antes, right? If I were to open pot it'd be 2250, so I don't think 2000 is too big or out of the question, especially against a station who's been setup to be value towned due to meta game.I'm glad to see others agree I screwed up the turn though. The river was a 9c. He check/called 7500 with A8.

I don't change the size of my open-raise amount much when antes are in. Certainly I wouldn't switch it from 1600 to 2250. I want it high enough to get one caller when I hold AA, but not to drive them all away - I feel that 2000+ will do that here.

[RISEorFall 0]

I don't change the size of my open-raise amount much when antes are in. Certainly I wouldn't switch it from 1600 to 2250. I want it high enough to get one caller when I hold AA, but not to drive them all away - I feel that 2000+ will do that here.

not with the read that this guy will atleast call if not play back at us b/c of previous hands. without reads a good standard would be around the 1600 range with the limper, but if our read tells us he's ready to play back, why not make it more?

[XXEddie 0]

not with the read that this guy will atleast call if not play back at us b/c of previous hands. without reads a good standard would be around the 1600 range with the limper, but if our read tells us he's ready to play back, why not make it more?

Because if he is THAT big of a station raising less(ftr, I still only make it like 1300-ish preflop) won't make that big of a difference. There is just no reason to jack the pot up preflop with big 4x-5x raises even if there is a limper. In this case, yes we want a big pot to happen quickly because we have AA, but what about with possible raising hands like AJ and 99...?And if you don't raise that much with lesser hands(like AJ and 99), that is even worse. Regardless of your hand your standard opening raises should remain consistent. If you raise 4x-5x with big hands, and lesser for your weaker hands, people are going to start picking up on that. Especially because most of the time when you raise it won't be with a premium hand, and when you usually make it 3.5xbb or whatever, and all of the sudden you pop it to 5x+ the bb....it will raise red flags and you will lose action.

[Nashtak 0]

Because if he is THAT big of a station raising less(ftr, I still only make it like 1300-ish preflop) won't make that big of a difference. There is just no reason to jack the pot up preflop with big 4x-5x raises even if there is a limper. In this case, yes we want a big pot to happen quickly because we have AA, but what about with possible raising hands like AJ and 99...?And if you don't raise that much with lesser hands(like AJ and 99), that is even worse. Regardless of your hand your standard opening raises should remain consistent. If you raise 4x-5x with big hands, and lesser for your weaker hands, people are going to start picking up on that. Especially because most of the time when you raise it won't be with a premium hand, and when you usually make it 3.5xbb or whatever, and all of the sudden you pop it to 5x+ the bb....it will raise red flags and you will lose action.

If you opponent deduce that you raise a lot more preflop with premium hands, wouldn't that make them mistaken? You don't raise a lot because of your aces, only because of that loose player.I don't totally disagree with your arguments but i don't think they weight enough against the read we have of villain. The higher we can get him to call preflop, the higher we can get him to call on every streets of postflop play.

[sjm20 0]

I'm too lazy to do the math, but it looks like the pot on the turn is ~10k and u started the hand w/ approx ~18kI try to set up a PSB on the river if I'm betting the turn. i think betting w/e accomplishes that is fine.

[sjm20 0]

also, since were back to preflop, im always 4xing here

[RISEorFall 0]

You don't raise a lot because of your aces, only because of that loose player.

thiswe're not doing this all the time, just when we have a good read. who cares if other players pick up that we have AA? they fold and we get HU with the guy we wanted to anyway.if we have a good read on a player that he's ready to play with us, and we have a good hand, NOT raising more is costing us value

[AimHigher 0]

Because if he is THAT big of a station raising less(ftr, I still only make it like 1300-ish preflop) won't make that big of a difference. There is just no reason to jack the pot up preflop with big 4x-5x raises even if there is a limper. In this case, yes we want a big pot to happen quickly because we have AA, but what about with possible raising hands like AJ and 99...?And if you don't raise that much with lesser hands(like AJ and 99), that is even worse. Regardless of your hand your standard opening raises should remain consistent. If you raise 4x-5x with big hands, and lesser for your weaker hands, people are going to start picking up on that. Especially because most of the time when you raise it won't be with a premium hand, and when you usually make it 3.5xbb or whatever, and all of the sudden you pop it to 5x+ the bb....it will raise red flags and you will lose action.

But this is the whole being exploitable against bad opponents thing. It's ok because I don't expect him to notice of any kind of correlation in terms of hand strength. Plus, even if I made it 2k with AJ it certainly isn't a spew. He's still calling with worse and creating a little extra fold equity is certainly fine as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a bigger raise is manditory, but it certainly will make it easier to get stacks in post flop. We'll only need two streets instead of three. I don't think we're blowing this particular opponent out of the pot by making a larger raise and I'm not doing it against anyone I think is remotely competent.

[nas061000 0]

I'm liking the check. You've filled up, so once he does hit his flush(Which is what I'd put him on) then he should pay off nicely. If not take a large stab at the river and see if he'll call, if not then at least he won't see your cards.

[BeaverStyle 1]

I'm liking the check. You've filled up, so once he does hit his flush(Which is what I'd put him on) then he should pay off nicely. If not take a large stab at the river and see if he'll call, if not then at least he won't see your cards.

If you put him on a flush draw, then you NEED to bet. DUCY?He's going to miss his flush on the river a majority of the time... charge him to see it.

[SwolyswoND 1]

I don't think it's a coincidence that the only people saying that the check behind is good are new posters.Easiest bet ever.

[tuckermitchell 1]

But this is the whole being exploitable against bad opponents thing. It's ok because I don't expect him to notice of any kind of correlation in terms of hand strength. Plus, even if I made it 2k with AJ it certainly isn't a spew. He's still calling with worse and creating a little extra fold equity is certainly fine as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a bigger raise is manditory, but it certainly will make it easier to get stacks in post flop. We'll only need two streets instead of three. I don't think we're blowing this particular opponent out of the pot by making a larger raise and I'm not doing it against anyone I think is remotely competent.

this

[gooch 0]

If you put him on a flush draw, then you NEED to bet. DUCY?He's going to miss his flush on the river a majority of the time... charge him to see it.

i got it now, you charge him more times this way-once to draw to it-twice when he hits is and loses anyways-3 times if he misses and bluffwhere as if you don't charge him and he misses the flush you only get paid if he bluff at it

[Dhall901 0]

What they said.