Deep In Tourney...marginal Shove On Button

[river_me_this 0]

Im sitting with around 120k with blinds at 4k and 8k with a 800 ante it's folded to me on the button and I have 10s 2s I was thinking before it folded to me what I was going to do and since a standard raise for me there would be 20k i couldn't do that so I decided to shove I got called from the sb with As Jh and didn't hit. Any thoughts on if this was the right play or not?There was about 18k in pot with just the blinds and antes and there were 29 people left.

[donk4life 34]

You have an M of around 6, shoving here is not necessary, fold and find a better spot.

[MovingIn 0]

Any thoughts on if this was the right play or not?

No, no it's not. All you've really got here is fold equity, and since your shove is an open from the button (and likely to be seen as a bluff), it's more likely you get called by a wider range, pretty much all of which you're way behind to.If 20K is too much to try a steal with here, then fold.

[bigbadbeat 0]

no need to shove here, you will probably have better hands to shove with in at least 80% of your next 20 or 30 hands. Wait. You really have more time than you think.oh, by the way, convert your hands using the pinned link at the top of this forum. tourney buyin, number of players at the table, etc, all have an impact on what the correct decision is for most hands.

[Jimberry 0]

Next time don't tell us the results, its hard to get an unbiased opinion from people who know what happened. That said, I don't think a shove is terrible, but I'm folding in this spot. You have 15 BBs and are not so desperate that you need to shove here.

[Yahkin 0]

Assuming the blinds had more than you and a full table...Pushbot says fold with an M=6.25T2s - 5.3/3/2.2

[kkot 0]

We have 15bb. I think shoving here is pretty bad unless the blinds are super tight.

[no not baxter 0]

im pretty sure this is a +cEV shove, but raise/folding might be better v some people

[GetTheShades 0]

Insta fold imo. Your M is 6 and you have 9 more hands to see before you start really getting desparate, now if your M was 5 this shove would not be terrible, but still I would not advise it especially since you're on the button and you still have a few more hands to see before the BB hits you. All in all, i fold. (But a shove is not terrible and could be argued for)

[river_me_this 0]

thanks for all the help guys yea i had to make a decision quick and knew my M was aroundc 6 so i didn;t think it was too bad but i'll deff wait for better hands in the future

[no not baxter 0]

thanks for all the help guys yea i had to make a decision quick and knew my M was aroundc 6 so i didn;t think it was too bad but i'll deff wait for better hands in the future

lol no....the thing is it is going to be a shove versus most villains

[Yahkin 0]

lol no....the thing is it is going to be a shove versus most villains

The math disagrees even against very tight villains.

[no not baxter 0]

The math disagrees even against very tight villains.

your math? or your messed up pushbot chart math?

[no not baxter 0]

your math? or your messed up pushbot chart math?

this is what my math got versus different calling ranges22+,A7s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo -2,719 chips55+,A9s+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo+4625 chips66+,AJs+,AQo++9,099 chipsNow, obv I havent even mentioned raise/folding because we have no info on villains. Noone is calling as loose as that first range obviously so this is going to be a +cEV shove.

[SwolyswoND 1]

15 BB's and M around 6 is too much for me personally to be open-shoving. Only exception there is if I had a lot less in the last orbit or two, open-shoved a couple times and never got called. Then if I picked up a big hand AA/KK/QQ/AK, I'd open-shove again hoping my image makes someone look me up light with something like TT-JJ, AJ/AQ.The hand itself is a fold, but a raise/fold isn't the worst idea in the world. I wouldn't do it, but if you have a tight image you might give it a shot occasionally.

[Yahkin 0]

your math? or your messed up pushbot chart math?

Pushbot chart.Why do you say it's messed up? Are you suggesting that the pushbot charts that lots of successful players use are junk?I'm not 100% on the math with multiples left to act, but what I'm getting is that both villains have to be folding the bottom 75% of hands for this to be a +cEv play. Are the blinds going to really be playing that tight facing a short stack button shove? It doesn't seem likely unless there is some significant prize value change from 29th - 28th place.

[Yahkin 0]

this is what my math got versus different calling ranges22+,A7s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo -2,719 chips55+,A9s+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo+4625 chips66+,AJs+,AQo++9,099 chipsNow, obv I havent even mentioned raise/folding because we have no info on villains. Noone is calling as loose as that first range obviously so this is going to be a +cEV shove.

Well stack sizes are really needed to know for sure, but folding bottom 82 facing a short stack button shove seems overly tight to me. And that is the top range you used.

[no not baxter 0]

Well stack sizes are really needed to know for sure, but folding bottom 82 facing a short stack button shove seems overly tight to me. And that is the top range you used.

since when do ppl snap you off with these hands when your shoving 15bbs?...8 bbs yes, not 15and i mean i dont think lots of the successful players use the pushbot chart...i could be wrong, but if i do they def have significant leaks in their games

[Yahkin 0]

since when do ppl snap you off with these hands when your shoving 15bbs?...8 bbs yes, not 15and i mean i dont think lots of the successful players use the pushbot chart...i could be wrong, but if i do they def have significant leaks in their games

I'm gonna go with your advice on this one since you are a more experienced player. It does raise a couple questions for me and maybe you can address them for me.If it is a +cEv for someone to shove in this spot with pretty much ATC, should we as the SB or BB open our range up significantly? i.e. Let's say we are sitting in the BB in this hand with a 200k stack and Q8s. It's not a premium hand, but since his range is ATC, should we be considering a call?M vs. BB's. Yes, OP has 15 BB's, but isn't the more important number M? BB's don't take antes into account and makes us much shorter than # of BB's would indicate. Earlier in my poker career I relied solely on BB's and found that when I hit 10BB's and shove mode, I was actually already too short because the antes were bloating the pot and giving people odds. (Of course this all reinforces shoving in this spot vs. waiting for a better one.)Should I throw away my pushbot chart? I only really use if for those real borderline spots anyway, but is it a crutch that is hurting instead of helping? I don't have the number of hands under my belt yet to know off the top of my head all the situations, and of course don't have time to do the math on the spot. Is it a valid stepping stone?

[no not baxter 0]

I'm gonna go with your advice on this one since you are a more experienced player. It does raise a couple questions for me and maybe you can address them for me.If it is a +cEv for someone to shove in this spot with pretty much ATC, should we as the SB or BB open our range up significantly? i.e. Let's say we are sitting in the BB in this hand with a 200k stack and Q8s. It's not a premium hand, but since his range is ATC, should we be considering a call?M vs. BB's. Yes, OP has 15 BB's, but isn't the more important number M? BB's don't take antes into account and makes us much shorter than # of BB's would indicate. Earlier in my poker career I relied solely on BB's and found that when I hit 10BB's and shove mode, I was actually already too short because the antes were bloating the pot and giving people odds. (Of course this all reinforces shoving in this spot vs. waiting for a better one.)Should I throw away my pushbot chart? I only really use if for those real borderline spots anyway, but is it a crutch that is hurting instead of helping? I don't have the number of hands under my belt yet to know off the top of my head all the situations, and of course don't have time to do the math on the spot. Is it a valid stepping stone?

No, we should not be widening our shoving range significantly. Most people do not know how wide to shove here. If you see someone shove wide, take note on it so you know what type of hands are included in his range. If it is against a reg who you know is shoving wide than ya loosen up. Q8s is really light tho (obv if anyone is shoving atc, then it is a call tho).It's funny. When I first started out everyone was obsessed with the whole M thing because of Dan Harringtons book (which is very solid, but very elementary). Then, a lot of the good players I talked to started to talk in BBs instead of M. I think it is just much easier to look at the blinds and look at your stack and say oh i have 17 bbs. versus calculating the M. Obviously, it matters whether antes are in the pot and how big they are. Ya, BBs "dont take antes into account" but all you have to do is recognize they are in play. The antes are bigger on Full Tilt than Pokerstars. Do I do some sort of calculation differently on FTP then PS? No. I just know my shoving ranges should be a little tighter on PS than on FTP. A friend of mine gave me a spreadsheet with really good shoving ranges though that corresponds with M (sorry, I cannot give it out as he created it all by himself and just sent it to me as a favor), so it looks like I will be using M and BBs now. Gawd if only I remembered what an M of 8 meant lol.Nah, Im not saying you should throw away your pushbot chart, but Im just saying it is not 100% accurate. I used to abide by it all the time, have it open at all times and look at it to see whether stuff is a shove. But, the thing is it is a little off in how wide you should be shoving and obv shoving is very table dependent. I recommend playing around with this tool. It is very helpful in more than one way.http://www.pokerxfactor.com/sheets/

[Acekob 0]

No, we should not be widening our shoving range significantly. Most people do not know how wide to shove here. If you see someone shove wide, take note on it so you know what type of hands are included in his range. If it is against a reg who you know is shoving wide than ya loosen up. Q8s is really light tho (obv if anyone is shoving atc, then it is a call tho).It's funny. When I first started out everyone was obsessed with the whole M thing because of Dan Harringtons book (which is very solid, but very elementary). Then, a lot of the good players I talked to started to talk in BBs instead of M. I think it is just much easier to look at the blinds and look at your stack and say oh i have 17 bbs. versus calculating the M. Obviously, it matters whether antes are in the pot and how big they are. Ya, BBs "dont take antes into account" but all you have to do is recognize they are in play. The antes are bigger on Full Tilt than Pokerstars. Do I do some sort of calculation differently on FTP then PS? No. I just know my shoving ranges should be a little tighter on PS than on FTP. A friend of mine gave me a spreadsheet with really good shoving ranges though that corresponds with M (sorry, I cannot give it out as he created it all by himself and just sent it to me as a favor), so it looks like I will be using M and BBs now. Gawd if only I remembered what an M of 8 meant lol.Nah, Im not saying you should throw away your pushbot chart, but Im just saying it is not 100% accurate. I used to abide by it all the time, have it open at all times and look at it to see whether stuff is a shove. But, the thing is it is a little off in how wide you should be shoving and obv shoving is very table dependent. I recommend playing around with this tool. It is very helpful in more than one way.http://www.pokerxfactor.com/sheets/

Do you need to pay some kind of fee to use that tool?I signed up, but nothing happens when I click on your link.

[outsider13 0]

Do you need to pay some kind of fee to use that tool?I signed up, but nothing happens when I click on your link.

I'm pretty sure you have to be a pxf subscriber

[no not baxter 0]

I'm pretty sure you have to be a pxf subscriber

i am not a pxf subscriber but it works for me...maybe its because i used to be a pxf sub