Jump to content

From A Nl Holdem Charity Mtt


Recommended Posts

I apologize for not knowing how to enter cards but I had a hand this weekend may seem easy to some but was one of those thought provoking hands for me.This was in a NL tourney for charity. $100 buy in with $75 rebuys. There were a little over 200 people in the tourney. 5000 starting stacks and 5000 rebuys and add ons. I was at a table that had pretty weak players and I played pretty tight for the first 4 blinds. The 5th blind was the end of the rebuy period. I let myself get down to about 4800 and rebought. Then I added on at the end of the rebuy period. So I had a little over 14000 at the end of the rebuy. Soon after the rebuy ended I got moved to a table of players that were pretty decent players. I played one hand and got my stack up to about 17,000. A big stack of about 35K moved to my table and was playing 2 out of 3 hands. Once he made a big bet and pushed a guy off of a hand with pocket aces.So here is my hand. Again I've got about 17K.I've got the button and get dealt QQ. Blinds 300/600FTA limps.The two between him and the big stack foldBig stack raises to 1200Cutoff folds.I raise to 2400.sb and bb foldFTA callsBig Stack callsflop is 5 J 4FTA and Big Stack checkI bet 2400FTA foldsBig stack callsThe turn is an ABig Stack checks I check River is a 5Big stack bets 10K. Enough to basically put me all in.I deliberated over the hand for a couple of minutes. The way everything played out, I put him on any one of three hands. Either KK, JJ or AJ.But I never could get comfortable with what I thought he might have.Where were my mistakes and what would you have done?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you need to bet more on the turn with three players the pot was roughly 8k.If you did that, it then forces you to shove or give up on the hand at the turn, depending on if you read Big Stack for an Ace. If he has KK then it's a cooler.As played you have to fold given no info on villain, especially if you put him on those ranges.

Link to post
Share on other sites

i think you should be betting more on the flop. like chet above said, there is approx 8k in the pot and a bet of 2400 doesn't really accomplish anything here imo. check on the turn is ok, and as played, fold on the river.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd raise more pre. You have a limper and min raise, get it up to 3400-3600ish. Raise more pre and the hand plays out quite differently imo. It would pretty much be a flop shove.As played, turn check and river fold are fine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you need to bet more on the turn with three players the pot was roughly 8k.If you did that, it then forces you to shove or give up on the hand at the turn, depending on if you read Big Stack for an Ace. If he has KK then it's a cooler.As played you have to fold given no info on villain, especially if you put him on those ranges.
When I put the 2400 out there on the flop, I was trying to get rid of any overzealous AK hand and make some money off of KJ or AJ.As I usually do, I was trying to play the hand by the "rules." And yet make some money from it as well. Anytime you get Q's or K's, you worry about some over aggressive player calling you with A3o and then catching his A. When I bet on the flop, he made a quick call. Before the A was dealt, I had decided he could easily have KK or JJ in his hand. When the A hit, I froze and was glad to get to check. The other thing he did was after his 10K bet, he told me that he would show me either way. Which was the same thing that he said when he showed the Aces. Looking back, when he said that with Aces, there were two Kings on the board.I try not to be a results orieneted player. A lesson I learned on this forum. Some of the best playing and most money that I have made was done by making some tremendous folds. The more that I play, the more I want to play each hand as it should be played and if somebody rivers a win on me, I hate it, but I can more easily deal with it now. There are parts of this hand that I think I played perfectly. There are parts that I played about as bad as they could be played.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely raise more Pre. Minraise here prices both players in and we really need to isolate with a PP. Put in 3600 PF and the flop is an easy shove.As played PF , raise more on the flop. You got your safe flop. AJ/KJ will likely call a pot sized bet, so let's make em pay.That turn sucked. c/f is proper imo.

Link to post
Share on other sites

As others said, repop bigger pre, to ~3600. Our min-3bet only serves to bloat the pot. And the flop bet as played was too small and very easy to call. With our stack, this looks like a 2 street hand: reraise pre, then get it in on the flop when the LAG calls us. If he has JJ, then that's just brutal.As played, if we were tight and he was loose, villain could easily put us in on the river figuring that, after position-leading the flop and checking the turn, we don't have enough to call off on the river. I'm not saying the whole hand is a bald bluff on his part, but his line is a line I'd take with a wide range if I believed my opponent was tight, had maybe a pair and would fold here.Were there any flush draws on board?Also, if you actually put him on AJ/KK/JJ, then it would be an easy fold on the river. But I think you know better.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm intrigued by the idea of a bigger bet preflop. That goes against my standard practice. I think the 4 x BB follows Herrington's advice. If I am incorrect on that, somebody let me know. So hear me out on my reasoning behind the 2400 preflop. I've got a big stack initial raiser in front of me. That is probably a middle PP or the guy is trying to trap with AA or KK. It also could very easily be a strong A. The limp is either suited connectors or a weak A or a small PP. Whatever it is, I am going to be able to narrow him down on the flop. My preflop thinking is, with my raise, the big stack(villain) is going to shove if he is trying to trap with AA or KK. If he does shove then I can figure that with his min raise then shove that he probably does have AA or KK and I can fold. It wouldn't be an easy fold but I wouldn't lose a lot of chips. If I do call an all in and get beat by AA or KK, I can look back and have an easy assessment of the hand. Looking back, I should have realized that he didn't have either one of those hands when he didn't shove preflop. In hindsight, with 8100 in the pot on the flop I should have bet no less than 5K. And really, with all undercards and my chipstack, I should have just gone ahead shoved. As the hand played, my worst mistake was not betting the turn A. With my 2400 bet on the flop and his call, the pot was now at nearly 13000. If I bet even 5K, it looks like I am wanting a call and without a strong A, the villain folds. If he does raise me, I know what he has and I can either try to hit a set or fold and wish I had checked. The fact is, there aren't many hands that would check that A on the turn with the big stack. The bottom line is, I didn't play the hand good at all. Honestly, the only thing that I think I did right was the preflop bet. That being said, because I have been so consumed with this hand for the last 4 days and because of the interaction on this forum, the hand will pay off in the long run. I'll tell the result of the hand since I think everybody is through commenting.I folded and the villain showed me pocket 8's. I told him it was a great play on his part and he told me that if I had bet the turn, he would have insta-folded.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm intrigued by the idea of a bigger bet preflop. That goes against my standard practice. I think the 4 x BB follows Herrington's advice. If I am incorrect on that, somebody let me know. So hear me out on my reasoning behind the 2400 preflop. I've got a big stack initial raiser in front of me. That is probably a middle PP or the guy is trying to trap with AA or KK. It also could very easily be a strong A. The limp is either suited connectors or a weak A or a small PP. Whatever it is, I am going to be able to narrow him down on the flop. My preflop thinking is, with my raise, the big stack(villain) is going to shove if he is trying to trap with AA or KK. If he does shove then I can figure that with his min raise then shove that he probably does have AA or KK and I can fold. It wouldn't be an easy fold but I wouldn't lose a lot of chips. If I do call an all in and get beat by AA or KK, I can look back and have an easy assessment of the hand. Looking back, I should have realized that he didn't have either one of those hands when he didn't shove preflop. In hindsight, with 8100 in the pot on the flop I should have bet no less than 5K. And really, with all undercards and my chipstack, I should have just gone ahead shoved. As the hand played, my worst mistake was not betting the turn A. With my 2400 bet on the flop and his call, the pot was now at nearly 13000. If I bet even 5K, it looks like I am wanting a call and without a strong A, the villain folds. If he does raise me, I know what he has and I can either try to hit a set or fold and wish I had checked. The fact is, there aren't many hands that would check that A on the turn with the big stack. The bottom line is, I didn't play the hand good at all. Honestly, the only thing that I think I did right was the preflop bet. That being said, because I have been so consumed with this hand for the last 4 days and because of the interaction on this forum, the hand will pay off in the long run. I'll tell the result of the hand since I think everybody is through commenting.I folded and the villain showed me pocket 8's. I told him it was a great play on his part and he told me that if I had bet the turn, he would have insta-folded.
The problem is in the math. By only raising to 2400 preflop, UTG really has no choice to call. You are giving him almost 3-1 on his money and he should be calling with just about ATC. The big stack is now getting 5-1. He only folds if he has a heart attack and the clock gets called on him. So all we've done is bloated the pot and not gained any information. Same thing on the flop bet. We don't gain any information, so we are just guessing when the scary turn comes.If you believe the big stack is trying to trap with AA, why would he shove on your minraise? Calling seems natural for someone trapping. If he does min/shove, can you really narrow him to AA/KK? I would think a big stack's range would be a bit wider...AK and TT+ Unless you put him on exactly AA/KK, can you really fold queens?The whole hand played like you were scared of the 2 possible hands that could beat you. We can't play worrying about monsters in the closet, for every time you avoid the cooler, you will lose value 9 times. You have QQ, let's isolate PF and get it in on the 'safe' flop.
Link to post
Share on other sites

So preflop, there's 2700 in the pot before it's your turn to act. If this is like most "charity" type events, the next level will be 400/800 or 500/1000, probably with 20 minute levels.I think I'm pushing on the button with QQ here. If the bigstack has AA or KK, so be it, but I think you get called with TT, JJ, and a variety of Ax in this type of event, so a push has to be +EV.I see people advocating a bigger no-push raise, but I think this is a bad idea because let's assume you raise to 3600 instead and only have the big stack call. Pot will 8700. If the big stack pushes on an Axx board, you have to fold, and you've cost yourself too much w/o getting any fold equity from your initial raise.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have tried to wrap my mind around the 6x raise preflop and convince myself that is the way to go. But I haven't been able to do it. That one is going to take some time. I don't think UTG would have called 6x. I'm pretty sure the big stack would have. I think a lot of my questioning on the 6x raise, comes from playing way too much small stake online tournaments. Where people do call and suckout with weak aces or even weak K's. I am playing way too many 1.10 45 person sng's because it is cheap and just a time killer. To be perfectly honest, if I were in the same or nearly the same situation again this week, I don't think there is any doubt that I would push on the safe flop.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Anytime you get Q's or K's, you worry about some over aggressive player calling you with A3o and then catching his A. When I bet on the flop, he made a quick call. Before the A was dealt, I had decided he could easily have KK or JJ in his hand.
Don't play so scared. I mean, you pick up pocket queens and you're immediately terrified of some donk hitting a 3 outer. You're worried about a bigger overpair. On the flop look at what you're putting him on: the nuts or a bigger pair. This is no way to go about playing poker, especially in a fast-paced tournament. Be aggressive and get value. I also like the pf shove. You're called by worse pairs, by AK, and yeah sometimes by AA/KK but there's nothing you can really do about that. You're ahead of everyone's probable range, there's a lot of money in the pot already, and your hand's vulnerable to overcards and will be hard to play postflop given stack sizes. Shove it in and take it down
Link to post
Share on other sites
I have tried to wrap my mind around the 6x raise preflop and convince myself that is the way to go. But I haven't been able to do it. That one is going to take some time. I don't think UTG would have called 6x. I'm pretty sure the big stack would have. I think a lot of my questioning on the 6x raise, comes from playing way too much small stake online tournaments. Where people do call and suckout with weak aces or even weak K's. I am playing way too many 1.10 45 person sng's because it is cheap and just a time killer. To be perfectly honest, if I were in the same or nearly the same situation again this week, I don't think there is any doubt that I would push on the safe flop.
You are not raising 6x. You are 3betting the latest raise. Big difference. UTG folding and the big stack calling is exactly the goal of 3betting in this spot. QQ performs better against 1 villain than 2.As for your online comment, I think you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint. You are sitting with QQ and these donks will call with weak A's and K's. This is a good thing because you will win 70% of the time. If they will call more in these spots, then you should be betting more....not less. Not getting value just because we "know" that he's going to suckout with his A5 is playing scared and is a leak.
Link to post
Share on other sites

In practice, you'll also win more than 70% of the time with QQ against ace rag. When some donk calls you with A3o and sees a flop he's not going to flop an ace all that often. Yeah if you see the whole board you'll only win ~30%, but when you only see three cards, QQ is an even bigger "favorite" over ace junk.Plus his reverse implied odds are terrible. You can see, plain as day, the ace on the board, so you won't pay him off (shouldn't anyway) when you are behind. But he's totally in the dark when the flop comes off like AQ5.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You should never be worried about getting your stack in as a 70/30 favorite except perhaps at the bubble. Heck, you'd do that on hand 1 if you could. Your edge over even a weak field is not better than that, so you're just costing yourself chips if you play scared. Yes, sometimes A3 will call you and hit their A, but that's poker as they say.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I apologize for not knowing how to enter cards but I had a hand this weekend may seem easy to some but was one of those thought provoking hands for me.This was in a NL tourney for charity. $100 buy in with $75 rebuys. There were a little over 200 people in the tourney. 5000 starting stacks and 5000 rebuys and add ons. I was at a table that had pretty weak players and I played pretty tight for the first 4 blinds. The 5th blind was the end of the rebuy period. I let myself get down to about 4800 and rebought. Then I added on at the end of the rebuy period. So I had a little over 14000 at the end of the rebuy. Soon after the rebuy ended I got moved to a table of players that were pretty decent players. I played one hand and got my stack up to about 17,000. A big stack of about 35K moved to my table and was playing 2 out of 3 hands. Once he made a big bet and pushed a guy off of a hand with pocket aces.So here is my hand. Again I've got about 17K.I've got the button and get dealt QQ. Blinds 300/600FTA limps.The two between him and the big stack foldBig stack raises to 1200Cutoff folds.I raise to 2400.sb and bb foldFTA callsBig Stack callsflop is 5 J 4FTA and Big Stack checkI bet 2400FTA foldsBig stack callsThe turn is an ABig Stack checks I check River is a 5Big stack bets 10K. Enough to basically put me all in.I deliberated over the hand for a couple of minutes. The way everything played out, I put him on any one of three hands. Either KK, JJ or AJ.But I never could get comfortable with what I thought he might have.Where were my mistakes and what would you have done?
I haven't read results, but I see a clear problem with your bet-sizing. Preflop: There's a limp and a minraise, and you pop it 4x? You're giving very inticing odds to both players to call, and you want to raise enough pre to get it HU. I would raise to anywhere from 4-5k.Flop: At this point, the pot should be much larger and your hand should be much easier to play. This is about the best flop we can hope for besides AQx, and we can't consider folding. At this point, the pot is big enough to want to win now, so I would over-bet the pot (or bet about the pot size). Someone w/ Jx might just call off thinking "zomg top pair !" and mid pairs might stay in, putting you on a missed AQ/AK and think you're trying to buy the pot. Either way, you're only behind JJ or KK/AA here, and villain has a much wider range based on how the hand was played.Turn: Cry when the A comes because you already have all the money in the pot and your opponent flipped AJ. GG suh!
Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I am going to play a $35.00 MTT tomorrow at a casino in OK. I am going to approach these big pair hands differently. Assuming, of course, that I get a big pair. I think I have a little better grasp of the three bet idea right now. If I do get in a similar situation, I'll post it here. I do appreciate all of the dialogue and pointers.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to me the problem with your thinking is that you are still basing your bet size on the blinds, when there has already been an additional raise after the blinds. Your bet size has to be a response to that raise, not to the blinds. Raise 3x his raise. On the flop you have given him better than 4 to 1 to call. Very few live players are folding anything to a bet that size.JB

Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL...Very first hand of the tournament, I get AA. I am in seat 9 and the button is on 5, 25/50 blinds, 4K starting stacks. UTG limps, I raise to 200. I get two callers, I don't remember what the flop was but I threw out a red 1K chip, took it down and flipped the aces. Pretty cool first hand.I never got QQ but I did get JJ once and raised 3xbb to 600, got two callers and flopped a J. There were two spades in the flop so I had to make a pot sized bet and got no callers. One guy caught some of the flop because it took him a while to fold. I had already decided that I was pushing the turn for anything other than the board pairing.I got put out of the tourney in the bb when I turned two pr. and got put out by a bigger two pr. No real interesting hands.

Link to post
Share on other sites
I never got QQ but I did get JJ once and raised 3xbb to 600, got two callers and flopped a J. There were two spades in the flop so I had to make a pot sized bet and got no callers. One guy caught some of the flop because it took him a while to fold. I had already decided that I was pushing the turn for anything other than the board pairing.
You're still sizing bets wrong. You don't "have to make a pot size bet" when you flop a set. Just because there are two of a suit on the board does not automatically mean someone is drawing to it. And even if they are, they're 33% to make it w/o even accounting for the board pairs to make your boat. This is a great spot to bet for value. You shouldn't be scared to play this pot.
Link to post
Share on other sites
You're still sizing bets wrong. You don't "have to make a pot size bet" when you flop a set. Just because there are two of a suit on the board does not automatically mean someone is drawing to it. And even if they are, they're 33% to make it w/o even accounting for the board pairs to make your boat. This is a great spot to bet for value. You shouldn't be scared to play this pot.
There was one lady at the table that was making some outrageous calls and hitting on the river. It was just one of those freak things. She was in this hand along with a guy that had been folding a lot. I wanted to isolate one of them and get the other one out. If the woman called, I could be pretty comfortable in her chasing a flush. If the guy called, he probably had a big pair or a lower set. If that were true, I had him on the turn or he would just get lucky. If there was just one person in the hand, I think I probably would have bet half the pot and tried to get a call. With two, there are double the number of hands that could be a problem and tougher decisions for me on the turn.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...