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So, I feel we check and give them a chance to bet/bluff. I don't feel we can raise a bet because as stated before he COULD have us beat, so we minimize our losses in a sense, but I also feel we don't fold to any bet.The only way to get action from him on the river if he's beat is if we check to show weakness.
I couldn't agree with this more. This thought process is one of the leaks in my game that I've shored up lately. The betting hard on a board that just got a little scarier, especially OOP was taking a toll on me. The check/call route in this situation is easily the best line IMO. You could argue that is a soft final play, especially HU, but I think you end up making well more money long term check calling bluffs and 2nd pair top two's that suddenly grow a pair thinking they are good, than you do losing a value bet on 5th and/or losing to the made flush. but even for the losing to the made flush hands.....if you had bet out, you'd be losing even more $$ that way.I think folding is out of the questions HU.
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By check calling 2/3 your stack you are going to be 99% confident you have the best hand in this spot. Which if this is the case a check / shove or open shove the river are the two best options.Note there is more than one draw out there, KQ is also a very likely hand in this spot especially at this buy in level. Depending on the villains style, I'd like to either check snap, or time for a little while and bet a smaller amount (say 300) inducing KQ to donk shove over the top. You will lose value by simply shoving or checking. I think the smaller river bet will get him to call with a 10, and sometimes over shove with KQ. Either way if he has hit his flush you can't avoid it, but you can increase your EV when he misses KQ or had A10 etc.Edit: the re-pop pre is very spewy
1) I think you don't understand what this is.2) lol.
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I couldn't agree with this more. This thought process is one of the leaks in my game that I've shored up lately. The betting hard on a board that just got a little scarier, especially OOP was taking a toll on me. The check/call route in this situation is easily the best line IMO. You could argue that is a soft final play, especially HU, but I think you end up making well more money long term check calling bluffs and 2nd pair top two's that suddenly grow a pair thinking they are good, than you do losing a value bet on 5th and/or losing to the made flush. but even for the losing to the made flush hands.....if you had bet out, you'd be losing even more $$ that way.I think folding is out of the questions HU.
The question is: What hand is he flatting pf and check/calling with twice that he's bluffing with? He has to have some sort of draw value to his hand if he's going to bet this river, because he might c/c 2 streets with a hand with marginal showdown value, in which case he's just checking down because he never gets called by worse.
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lolz, since when is 3-betting KJs HU preflop very spewy?
I wouldn't take this line, you instantly escalate the size of the pot when you are out of position. I'd rather call and peel the flop off when this deep, your hand strength is totally hidden by doing this. Tehtoe - care to explain what is wrong in my strat here, rather than saying 'lol'?
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I wouldn't take this line, you instantly escalate the size of the pot when you are out of position. I'd rather call and peel the flop off when this deep, your hand strength is totally hidden by doing this. Tehtoe - care to explain what is wrong in my strat here, rather than saying 'lol'?
Your hand strength may be hidden by "calling to peel the flop" as you say but you're still oop and flops that you connect with xKx etc aren't too likely to get much more than a c-bet from a competent villain. Our hand here stands to be better than the vast majority of his opening range...
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Your hand strength may be hidden by "calling to peel the flop" as you say but you're still oop and flops that you connect with xKx etc aren't too likely to get much more than a c-bet from a competent villain. Our hand here stands to be better than the vast majority of his opening range...
Perhaps I look at it totally wrong, but the villain is rarely going to fold to this 3bet pre.So lets say he calls, the flop is 7 high. Now what? Or Qxx? I think increasing the size of the pot oop with a hand like KJ warrants more problems on later streets. What do others think? Its good to get other opinions on this, from what I have read / watched / learnt from playing HU myself is playing large pots oop is not how you win, although I admit my experience is not that intense.
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Shove it in.. hes gonna call with worse hands then the flush and you are going to pay off his flush anyways so you might as well let him call off when he has the worst hand . If you check he might check behind hands he might have called your shove with.

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Perhaps I look at it totally wrong, but the villain is rarely going to fold to this 3bet pre.So lets say he calls, the flop is 7 high. Now what? Or Qxx? I think increasing the size of the pot oop with a hand like KJ warrants more problems on later streets. What do others think? Its good to get other opinions on this, from what I have read / watched / learnt from playing HU myself is playing large pots oop is not how you win, although I admit my experience is not that intense.
Your argument becomes more flawed earlier when you state because "we are this deep..." the deeper we are the more we should be 3 betting.As for this post I speculate villain is opening a ton of hands, now if he's not a moron he's likely folding a solid amount of them to the three bet (assuming he folds everything but suited connectors, connectors, the odd gapper, broadway cards etc that leaves a ton or trash that he dump to the three bet).Every what if that you are asking can be said about any hand oop but I assume you'd advocate raising any ace, pair etc so we're running into the same scenario's there. The answer is it depends, it depends on what villian has been defending 3 bets with, what range villain thinks we're 3 betting etc.Bottom line is our hand crushes his opening range so we need to be getting money in the pot.Sorry if I'm not getting my point across clearly but I'm sure one of the many people on here who are much much better than me will explain it better.
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Shove it in.. hes gonna call with worse hands then the flush and you are going to pay off his flush anyways so you might as well let him call off when he has the worst hand . If you check he might check behind hands he might have called your shove with.
this is a great thread, and a great discussion with different points of view. Thanks for posting it Zimmer. this is my way of learning. I can see the rational for the shoving thx TJ
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Shove it in.. hes gonna call with worse hands then the flush and you are going to pay off his flush anyways so you might as well let him call off when he has the worst hand . If you check he might check behind hands he might have called your shove with.
Is there any weight to the times you are going to induce an air bluff or 2nd pair bet, feeling weakness from you, especially OOP. I dunno, I almost never play NL HU, so I guess I'm just asking more than anything. I feel like when I check these types of rivers in a comperable situation, I get a lot of river action from opponents on air that feel weakness and try for that "can only win by betting" play into the pot, inducing chips that would have snap folded to your bet. I liked VT's chime in too.
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Is there any weight to the times you are going to induce an air bluff or 2nd pair bet, feeling weakness from you, especially OOP. I dunno, I almost never play NL HU, so I guess I'm just asking more than anything. I feel like when I check these types of rivers in a comperable situation, I get a lot of river action from opponents on air that feel weakness and try for that "can only win by betting" play into the pot, inducing chips that would have snap folded to your bet. I liked VT's chime in too.
No, I tried to explain it in an earlier post, but I'll reiterate it here.He is almost never bluffing this river. The only hand he would bluff with here is maaaaaaaybe KQ and even that's unlikely because he probably folds the turn. He's not floating air here twice to bluff the river, it's just a terrible board for that because the board is just too scary to bluff. Therefore, his hands are either a made flush draw/combo draw (again I feel kinda unlikely because he would be getting more money in with big draws, and probably folding lesser draws) or a hand with some showdown value, but not great showdown value. I don't think I can c/f here, so I think my best play is to shove, and hope he levels himself into calling with a hand with marginal showdown value. It's way more likely for me to be bluffing here than for him to be bluffing here.
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Shove it in.. hes gonna call with worse hands then the flush and you are going to pay off his flush anyways so you might as well let him call off when he has the worst hand . If you check he might check behind hands he might have called your shove with.
This is where I went wrong... you're right, we lose alot of value on hands he would check behind with that would call the shove.. I think if the hand is playing fast especially..
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betting is the standard easy play.check folding takes a very good read. if u can make that very good read, check and when he bets allin you can decifer if hes got the flush or the bluff. tank checking might be good, to induce a bluff, if he's a player that bluffs and raises pf alot, you might be more inclinded to check to induce the bluff.if u put them on a jack or nice ten or overpair or even 3rd or 4th pair you should just bet, as they may check after u cuz the flush hit.if u put them on air you should check.if u really put them on the flush, the best way to find out is bet barely more than the previous street (so you dont look too weak), but still be able to fold the allin and save 400 or so. but man thats a tuff fold there , as they should be river-raising any weak J's bc your not supposed to have the flush.alot of people think there is one specific 'better' way to play each hand on each specific street, which is wrong. on the river in this hand, you do not have all your information yet, as what he does, after what you do on the river, can give u the final piece of the puzzle you are missing.

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He's not floating air here twice to bluff the river, it's just a terrible board for that because the board is just too scary to bluff.
u might be thinking too much here. to say this board is just too scary, is plain rediculous. since when is a 3 or 4 scary cards? yeah 2jacks could be scary, but you got a jack yourself, so you cant be scared then. then theres a 10.. so zero straight possibility. only 1 scary card is the flush on the river. i whole heartily disagree with that sentence in theory anyway. scary boards are often the most profitable time to bluff. especially if they keep calling, u know they got a good piece, and shutting down becomes super-easy. every watch ivey play? i believe he masters this concept. think about it, if your scared of the board, your opponent likely has those same feelings, so that should give you extra incentive to bluff them. im not saying do it every scary board. yeah a Q-7-2 is a great flop to bluff, cuz if they call you can usually shut it down cuz they obv got a piece. and even if they have a duece and sometimes a seven , it can be hard for them to continue. but a TJQK board is great to bluff also, cuz w/o an ace, its hard for people to call. heck some people even fold 9 here, and good high pairs. or 4 to the flush, another good time to bluff. in this specific hand, what if he ends up with nothing on the river? doesnt he almost HAVE to bluff the river after you check?
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But as played, how does he end up with nothing on the river? The only thing that could fit this is KQ, and I think that's folding on the turn most of the time. To think that he's calling the flop and turn with a hand that has no showdown value after the river hits, well, I just don't see it unless he's pulling the 'ole triple-float to bluff the river for less than a psb.

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wouldnt 89 8q 9q 9k ak aq all be hands they could have? blinds are so small, hes got position, i would think he could call your 3bet with tons of hands for implied value and bluff value. if hes tripling the blind on the button alot, then when you reraise he could think your bluffing cuz u know he raises alot. and if your bluffing he has great incentive to float and decifer whether he can steal from you on any of the three later streets.all u did was cont bet and he has position. why wouldnt he call with these, and if u show weakness later, try to bluff if he doesnt hit.i guess u did say hes a good player, and this may be a high stakes tourny, but giving your opponent credit for always making a sane, proper play all the time doesnt seem the right thing to do. people do make bad plays, and creative outside the box plays.

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betting is the standard easy play.check folding takes a very good read. if u can make that very good read, check and when he bets allin you can decifer if hes got the flush or the bluff. tank checking might be good, to induce a bluff, if he's a player that bluffs and raises pf alot, you might be more inclinded to check to induce the bluff.if u put them on a jack or nice ten or overpair or even 3rd or 4th pair you should just bet, as they may check after u cuz the flush hit.if u put them on air you should check.if u really put them on the flush, the best way to find out is bet barely more than the previous street (so you dont look too weak), but still be able to fold the allin and save 400 or so. but man thats a tuff fold there , as they should be river-raising any weak J's bc your not supposed to have the flush.alot of people think there is one specific 'better' way to play each hand on each specific street, which is wrong. on the river in this hand, you do not have all your information yet, as what he does, after what you do on the river, can give u the final piece of the puzzle you are missing.
u might be thinking too much here. to say this board is just too scary, is plain rediculous. since when is a 3 or 4 scary cards? yeah 2jacks could be scary, but you got a jack yourself, so you cant be scared then. then theres a 10.. so zero straight possibility. only 1 scary card is the flush on the river. i whole heartily disagree with that sentence in theory anyway. scary boards are often the most profitable time to bluff. especially if they keep calling, u know they got a good piece, and shutting down becomes super-easy. every watch ivey play? i believe he masters this concept. think about it, if your scared of the board, your opponent likely has those same feelings, so that should give you extra incentive to bluff them. im not saying do it every scary board. yeah a Q-7-2 is a great flop to bluff, cuz if they call you can usually shut it down cuz they obv got a piece. and even if they have a duece and sometimes a seven , it can be hard for them to continue. but a TJQK board is great to bluff also, cuz w/o an ace, its hard for people to call. heck some people even fold 9 here, and good high pairs. or 4 to the flush, another good time to bluff. in this specific hand, what if he ends up with nothing on the river? doesnt he almost HAVE to bluff the river after you check?
wouldnt 89 8q 9q 9k ak aq all be hands they could have? blinds are so small, hes got position, i would think he could call your 3bet with tons of hands for implied value and bluff value. if hes tripling the blind on the button alot, then when you reraise he could think your bluffing cuz u know he raises alot. and if your bluffing he has great incentive to float and decifer whether he can steal from you on any of the three later streets.all u did was cont bet and he has position. why wouldnt he call with these, and if u show weakness later, try to bluff if he doesnt hit.i guess u did say hes a good player, and this may be a high stakes tourny, but giving your opponent credit for always making a sane, proper play all the time doesnt seem the right thing to do. people do make bad plays, and creative outside the box plays.
wow.... you just have no clue do you?
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Thanks for the follow up Zimmer......but I make it a personal rule to not listen to anything that comes from Ann Arbor.HAH.I guess the more I think about it, you may make more off the overbet than you would the check here. I'm just rarely a fan of the overbet out of position unless I've got the goodest goods....and even then, it's typically a value-town bet. Like I say though, I almost never play HU NLHE so I really don't have true experience for this, which is why I'm just tryin to learn the rationale behind people's decisions.I'm gonna have to ask VT to PM me with his "answer" to this situational.

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