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Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, fuckin' ass off! He's a tight-ass! He's a SADIST! He's an absentee landlord! Worship that? NEVER!
Brilliant
This is what makes this type of belief so dangerous. Evidence against your belief is ultimately taken as further reason to believe. There's no way out.
You're quickly moving to the top of my list of favorite non sickie posters.There is no cash prize for that or quite frankly, no award at all. Not even a sense of personal satisfaction in saying "Hey, Ron_Mexico digs me" but yeah, I like you and what you write. Thanks.
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A friend of mine lost his Mom last summer after a 7 year battle with Parkinsons, and he told me that after seeing all the suffering that his Mom went through, his belief was pretty much shattered. Just as with the infant getting killed by the chow, what is the point? Teach others not to leave their infant by the chow? Help raise money for Parkinson's research? You would think there was an easier way to get the point across.Having said that, it has been 3 weeks now since my Mom's funeral. What has been keeping me going is the belief that I will see her again in the next life, and that this is just a temporary hiatus. Takes away some of the finality of it all.I find fascinating the folks who are able to communicate with the dead, and I hope this is not all a hoax. The few times I have been down in Phoenix I have wanted to get in touch with the gal who is the basis for the TV show Medium. Unfortunately she was not taking appointments. But it certainly would be a hell of a lot more comforting to get some actual proof of the afterlife, to ease ones fears about dying while still alive, as well as to better cope with the (hopefully temporary) loss of loved ones.So I guess I am indirectly tying the existence of an afterlife with the presence of God, in a rambling sort of way.Re the O/P losing faith, I have this to share about what I have seen over the last few months. My Mom and Dad were very kind to a number of people over the years - the door was always open and relatives and strangers alike welcome and the Sunday meals were generous and well attended. When my Mom's health began failing, the outpouring of support and visitors to see her, and also the help given to my father, was tremendous in volume and spirit. To say the room was packed at her funeral was an understatementNow whether this was just positive Karma (and who invented and controls Karma after all?), or God working on his own, it was truly spectacular to witness, and even further reinforced my belief to live by the Golden Rule, as I saw the results of living this way for over 81 and 87 years for two special people, my Mom and Dad.So hang in there O/P, not sure if this helps with your analysis of your beliefs, but it is one example that has really reinforced my spirituality.Derrick

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BrilliantYou're quickly moving to the top of my list of favorite non sickie posters.There is no cash prize for that or quite frankly, no award at all. Not even a sense of personal satisfaction in saying "Hey, Ron_Mexico digs me" but yeah, I like you and what you write. Thanks.
Wow, I am honored, thank you. I have posted in the sick thread, once.
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This is what makes this type of belief so dangerous. Evidence against your belief is ultimately taken as further reason to believe. There's no way out.
It depends on what you are willing to categorize as evidence. Is a baby getting attacked by a dog evidence there is no God, or is it evidence that sometimes dogs attack babies? What is Gods role?- I can't imagine the chaos that would abound if, instead of time and chance we we had unexplainable phenomena pre-chance- instead of a dead baby a dog drops dead, or instead of a drunk hitting a child the car stops for no explainable reason, etc. You would find thousands of things that could and should have happened but never did based on interference from a higher power. Nature sure would not like that, natural selection would take a back seat, etc. I believe your evidence that you speak of often is just an assumption reached without examining all of the facts, mostly because the facts are so far reaching we couldn't analyze it if we tried. That's dangerous if my goal is justifying why I must strap this bomb on- it's harmless if the goal is to better myself. I will post more like Tuesday, weekends are always buy for me.
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I did pencil in Poison, Def Lepard and Cheap Trick, also Fleetwood Mac while I am in Vegas for the FCP Golf shindig, and then Cruefest and Reo Speedwagon with Styx and 38. Special. Summer tour announcements FTW. My wifes out of town for a few days so Tuesday will be a me day in Tuscon, Tournament at Del Sol Casino at 10, Rockies game and then Metalhead that night. Just me, and whatever trouble I can into in... Tuscon. Should be fun.
I have no taste in music but I like those bands too - add in Led Zeppelin and AC/DC while you're at it.Have a great time in LV and GL in the tourney in Tuscun!
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Start listening to Tool, NIN, and start banging goth chicks, it should cheer you right up.
I second the notion.And your Rihanna sig is top-notch, Big D. :club:
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It depends on what you are willing to categorize as evidence. Is a baby getting attacked by a dog evidence there is no God, or is it evidence that sometimes dogs attack babies? What is Gods role?- I can't imagine the chaos that would abound if, instead of time and chance we we had unexplainable phenomena pre-chance- instead of a dead baby a dog drops dead, or instead of a drunk hitting a child the car stops for no explainable reason, etc. You would find thousands of things that could and should have happened but never did based on interference from a higher power. Nature sure would not like that, natural selection would take a back seat, etc. I believe your evidence that you speak of often is just an assumption reached without examining all of the facts, mostly because the facts are so far reaching we couldn't analyze it if we tried.
It was you who felt that your faith was being 'tested'.
That's dangerous if my goal is justifying why I must strap this bomb on- it's harmless if the goal is to better myself.
Those people who strap bombs on themselves usually believe they are bettering themselves and the world. What's dangerous for you is that once this kind of belief takes hold in you, you have no way to get rid of it, regardless of whether it is true or false.
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This is what makes this type of belief so dangerous. Evidence against your belief is ultimately taken as further reason to believe. There's no way out.
That doesn't even make sense.You are claiming that there is evidence that Christainty is false? And when confronted we just stick our heads in the sand? Well when agnostics find proof of God, they just go out and buy new shoes that don't fit. There, now we've both made statements that don't make sense because they aren't based on anything but the ability to string words together.The belief that testing of your faith is a tactic God uses to strengthen us is no different than any instructor giving you harder challenges to build strengths. And since the Bible tells us that God tests us to stregnthen our faith...we can take it for what it is.sometimes we aren't the reason for the action, for instance the dog and the baby wasn't about Lois, but it could serve as a catalyst for him to think deeper about who God is.There is also the understanding that we are attempting to understand the meaning behind the actions of a Being that is infinately deeper and smarter than us. Why would/should we assume that we are correct in our judgements? Maybe the test wasn't a test, but a part of life that just is.
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That doesn't even make sense.You are claiming that there is evidence that Christainty is false?
Obviously there is evidence that Christianity is false. Furthermore, there is no good evidence that Christianity is true.
And when confronted we just stick our heads in the sand?
Even worse than sticking your head in the sand, you take the evidence against as further reason to believe: god just wants to see how strongly I trust him! If I give up on my belief just because things don't go along with it I am forsaking god!
There is also the understanding that we are attempting to understand the meaning behind the actions of a Being that is infinately deeper and smarter than us. Why would/should we assume that we are correct in our judgements?
But that's exactly what you do do. You assume you are correct in your judgement about the existence of god. I am not advocating any "assuming" whatsoever. I am advocating making the best provisional judgement based on the available evidence, and actively seeking new evidence to confirm or disconfirm our present assessments. I've seen this humility argument come up before, and it seems to me exactly backwards. Religion does not cultivate doubt, it cultivates certainty about the nature of the universe. There is no humility in that.Religious belief is fixed and unchanging - you believe the same thing people believed 2000 years ago about the nature of the universe and are not going to change your belief, because your belief itself tells you not to.
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Obviously there is evidence that Christianity is false. Furthermore, there is no good evidence that Christianity is true. Even worse than sticking your head in the sand, you take the evidence against as further reason to believe: god just wants to see how strongly I trust him! If I give up on my belief just because things don't go along with it I am forsaking god!But that's exactly what you do do. You assume you are correct in your judgement about the existence of god. I am not advocating any "assuming" whatsoever. I am advocating making the best provisional judgement based on the available evidence, and actively seeking new evidence to confirm or disconfirm our present assessments. I've seen this humility argument come up before, and it seems to me exactly backwards. Religion does not cultivate doubt, it cultivates certainty about the nature of the universe. There is no humility in that.Religious belief is fixed and unchanging - you believe the same thing people believed 2000 years ago about the nature of the universe and are not going to change your belief, because your belief itself tells you not to.
Lol this is an argument that I've made with the old communist on my other forum. I've told him to prove to me that God doesn't exist and his excuse is that I'm asking him to prove a negative and that it's up to me to prove that God does exist.
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Lol this is an argument that I've made with the old communist on my other forum. I've told him to prove to me that God doesn't exist and his excuse is that I'm asking him to prove a negative and that it's up to me to prove that God does exist.
Do you also place on him the burden of proving that unicorns, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, and Big Foot don't exist?
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You know Lois, I've struggled with issues of faith for several years now. There are still basic tenets of Christianity that I struggle with, but I've determined that I believe in God and I think Christianity is probably the most correct. As far as some of the things you mentioned are concerned, my understanding of God has always been that he gives us free will. He may intervene at times when we ask him to, but in general he doesn't get involved in day to day happenings here on earth. So, I don't think it's fair to always blame God for the bad things that happen in life, or give him credit for everything good that happens. Good luck with your quest.

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Obviously there is evidence that Christianity is false. Furthermore, there is no good evidence that Christianity is true.
I guess if you have convinced yourself of that, than you are missing out on the tons of money out there to write the book that blows up the Christian faith. Look how much Dan Brown made with an old tired argument that was disproved a thousand years ago, the swoon theory lol
Even worse than sticking your head in the sand, you take the evidence against as further reason to believe: god just wants to see how strongly I trust him! If I give up on my belief just because things don't go along with it I am forsaking god!
Oh, right, because it would be dumb to not know everything in God's mind and therefore never have any reason to not know what He is up to. You are basing this argument on the idea that faith is weakness, therefore you assume that anything that makes your faith strong, is just reinforcing weakness. The flaw is in your presupposed notion of faith.
But that's exactly what you do do. You assume you are correct in your judgement about the existence of god. I am not advocating any "assuming" whatsoever. I am advocating making the best provisional judgement based on the available evidence, and actively seeking new evidence to confirm or disconfirm our present assessments. I've seen this humility argument come up before, and it seems to me exactly backwards. Religion does not cultivate doubt, it cultivates certainty about the nature of the universe. There is no humility in that.
Oh, but having maybe 1/10,000th of the available knowledge in the universe and making the blanket statement that there is no God, that's humble?God gave us His Bible, in it is a lot of stuff that we can 'know'. This doesn't make us geniuses, or even gnostic, only able to read. So if I 'know' God doesn't like stealing, am I being arrogant for saying so? And if I know God has a plan for my life, and seeking that plan is the best I can do, am I lacking in humility for doing so?
Religious belief is fixed and unchanging - you believe the same thing people believed 2000 years ago about the nature of the universe and are not going to change your belief, because your belief itself tells you not to.
So if God wrote the Bible, unless he supplies us with updates for it, than we are just naive for believing it? You're line of thought ONLY makes sense IF the Bible was written by man and there is no God. Otherwise you are making strawman arguments that only impress the simpleWhen will 2+2 not equal 4? And when will God be wrong about what He did when he created the universe?
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Do you also place on him the burden of proving that unicorns, leprechauns, the Loch Ness Monster, and Big Foot don't exist?
Yes because everything has exactly equal value.
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Lol this is an argument that I've made with the old communist on my other forum. I've told him to prove to me that God doesn't exist and his excuse is that I'm asking him to prove a negative and that it's up to me to prove that God does exist.
It philosophy 101.You start with the null state and include that which can be confirmed.You don't start with every whimsical imagination and only remove those that can be demostrated not to exist.FSM, IPU & Russell's teacup.
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can we please take this garbage to the religion forum?some of us find it retarded, thanks
I'm a believer and I normally am the one to suggest this. But this time I figured I'd wait and let someone else do it instead.
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I guess if you have convinced yourself of that, than you are missing out on the tons of money out there to write the book that blows up the Christian faith. Look how much Dan Brown made with an old tired argument that was disproved a thousand years ago, the swoon theory lol
Such a book isn't needed. People don't believe in Christianity because there is scientifically sound evidence to do so. They believe despite such evidence; that's what faith is all about.
Oh, right, because it would be dumb to not know everything in God's mind and therefore never have any reason to not know what He is up to. You are basing this argument on the idea that faith is weakness, therefore you assume that anything that makes your faith strong, is just reinforcing weakness. The flaw is in your presupposed notion of faith.
It's not about strength or weakness. It's about a flawed way of determining the truth. Let me put it this way. Assume for a moment that someone comes to have faith in something that is not true. (say that Krishna exists!) This person is in a predicament, because when their belief is challenged by evidence, they take it as a "test of their faith" and are motivated to believe stronger. This is nice if they are right, but keeps them wrong if they are wrong. If they happen to be right, that's great, but any wrong beliefs that come to enjoy the benefit of faith cannot be dislodged.
Oh, but having maybe 1/10,000th of the available knowledge in the universe and making the blanket statement that there is no God, that's humble?
Saying that the available evidence does not suggest that the tenets of Christianity are true is more humble that having absolute certainty that they are true.
God gave us His Bible, in it is a lot of stuff that we can 'know'. This doesn't make us geniuses, or even gnostic, only able to read. So if I 'know' God doesn't like stealing, am I being arrogant for saying so? And if I know God has a plan for my life, and seeking that plan is the best I can do, am I lacking in humility for doing so?
Relative to someone who recognizes that they do not know anything with certainty, yes. The lack of skepticism is what is at issue here. Religion treats certainty about metaphysical issues as a virtue. Faith is certainty. Doubt, for example of the kind that Lois is experiencing, is not a good thing. He feels guilty about having doubts about a metaphysical issue that he should have doubt about!
So if God wrote the Bible, unless he supplies us with updates for it, than we are just naive for believing it? You're line of thought ONLY makes sense IF the Bible was written by man and there is no God. Otherwise you are making strawman arguments that only impress the simpleWhen will 2+2 not equal 4? And when will God be wrong about what He did when he created the universe?
My point is not ultimately dependent on what the truth of the matter is. It's about what method we use to decide what is true. Whether there is a god or not, we should use all of our faculties of reason to determine what is true.
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God gave us His Bible
this right here is why you cant understand what VB is saying. you claim he is starting with assumptions against christianity when in reality he started with nothing and examined the evidence. you claim that god gave us "his bible" and in doing so lose the ability to effectively argue about assumption. and the fact that you dont understand why is the reason this thread will rage on with you never acknowledging that you could be wrong. because to me it seems that that is what this whole thing is about. you claim certainity and proof in a matter that can never be proved or known. you may think it can, but you're wrong.
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