An Apology Of Sorts..

[KramitDaToad 0]

I have often thought that you and I would get along really good in real life, even arguing religion. You seem like a good dude. Just wrong about some things.

I have no doubt. We butt heads probably because we are both stubborn bastards, but regardless an online forum is a poor way to communicate. A lot is missed or left out when you don't have body language & tone of voice to temper a conversation. Missing these, frustration sets in and things can go astray.A difference between US & Australian/British humour means a lot gets missed as well no doubt. That and I am wrong about some things...

[brvheart 1,752]

Well, let me rephrase that sentence a bit. I don't want to _force_ anyone to concede anything.However, I think there are Christians who would disagree with brvheart there. Now, apparently that means he has a beef with those fellow Christians, but that's not my problem. I will say that when you draw the line in such a way that you can exclude even fellow believers, you might not be bearing witness to God's allegedly all-encompassing love really convincingly.And you might not be aware that this would be why some people consider Christians "holier-than-thou" and that they think themselves superior to others. You can say as often as you want, "No, no, we don't think we're superior." But the fact remains that you think you're right and everyone else is wrong. As long as you believe that right is superior to wrong, then yeah, there's a sense of superiority creeping in there.The wisest Christians I've observed were the ones who wanted to show love in their every act and who wanted to simply model Christ-like behavior in their lives. They weren't concerned with being right or wrong, but were very concerned with being kind and loving. I'm thinking Martin Luther King, Thomas Merton, Reinhold Niebuhr, as well as some people in my own family. And they generally believed in "many paths, one goal."

We agree on the bolded part.As for the other part... there is nothing I can do about that. I understand that it can be viewed as 'holier than thou', but the Bible says in John 14 that Jesus IS the only way. If you are a believer in Christ then that's the only choice you have. Why would you believe in Jesus when He said something that you disagree with? That doesn't make any sense to me. You can be 'good' and loving without claiming to be a Christian. (like yourself)

[Balloon guy 158]

I have no doubt. We butt heads probably because we are both stubborn bastards, but regardless an online forum is a poor way to communicate. A lot is missed or left out when you don't have body language & tone of voice to temper a conversation. Missing these, frustration sets in and things can go astray.A difference between US & Australian/British humour means a lot gets missed as well no doubt. That and I am wrong about some things...

I am a huge Monty Python / Little Britain fan, so you'd think I'd be more in tune than most yanks.

[brvheart 1,752]

Being raised down here, I still haven't fully realized how different churches elsewhere are. Back in the 1980s, Sam Waterston of Law & Order was in a TV show called I'll Fly Away. Every time it was mentioned, TV Guide used to put in brackets "the title comes from a Southern spiritual." And I was always like, "Who doesn't know that???" But I never realized the song was regional. Now I realize nearly all the great hymns I know are regional Southern gospel -- "I'll Fly Away," "The Old Rugged Cross," "When the Roll is Called Up Yonder," (that one's a giveaway because of "yonder"), etc.At my grandmother's funeral, there was a beautiful song sung. I looked all over the web for it, to no avail. When I finally asked my aunts and uncles, they all recognized the song and could sing it for me, but had never seen it written down in a hymnal. Turns out, it was a strictly regional song, written locally to Southwest Virginia and sung only in maybe a fifty-mile radius or so.

I've heard all of these songs, and sang all of them as a young child... but haven't heard them in a church service for at least 20 years. Fascinating stuff.

[Loismustdie 0]

I've heard all of these songs, and sang all of them as a young child... but haven't heard them in a church service for at least 20 years. Fascinating stuff.

Wow.... really? My church sings together every time they meet, at various parts in the service, and those songs are definitely in the loop. As far as the "one path" thing that SB is talking about some Christians disagreeing with, that's a problem. The bible is pretty clear on the one. That being said, it also talks about how some will have a semblance of faith, it just won't be perfect and it won't be enough. Biblically, people can still be "good" people and still not make it to heaven. Tragic, but true.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

The problem with this is the assumption that coming to any conclusion different from your own makes that seeker wrong. "People genuinely seeking the truth" also come to other faiths, and some of them come to no faith at all. Can you acknowledge that their truth may be the genuine truth for them, without giving up your own genuine truth?

I make no such assumption, nor does the Catholic Church. I will not acknowledge that thier truth is or is not the genuine truth. I only acknowledge that there is a geniune truth. I dont' believe an athiest can be right about the truth at the same time as a Christian. If one is correct the other has to be incorrect. Could a person geniunely seek the truth and long for justice but come to the conclusion through his life experience that there is no God? Yes, I think that is possible.

[Loismustdie 0]

I make no such assumption, nor does the Catholic Church. I will not acknowledge that thier truth is or is not the genuine truth. I only acknowledge that there is a geniune truth. I dont' believe an athiest can be right about the truth at the same time as a Christian. If one is correct the other has to be incorrect. Could a person geniunely seek the truth and long for justice but come to the conclusion through his life experience that there is no God? Yes, I think that is possible.

I 100% agree. If it's genuine, that is what his or hers hearts desire is, he will find the truth. Whether or not he listens is another story.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I find early Christianity (from 100 AD to the Reformation) extremely interesting, and have read probably dozens of books on the subject. [As an intellectual snob, I confess that I find it disappointing that very few "believing" Christians seem even half as interested in learning the whole story of their faith as I am. Why not?

I think the most appropriate way to answer this question would be to quote Cardinal John Henry Newman: "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."In America, there is a very large Protestant population. Those brought up in the Protestant tradition are not encouraged to study early church history for obvious reasons. Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church gave Luther good reason for his concern back in that time. Catholics in America today give Protestants good reason for concern. The Catholic Church in America may be the most dysfunctional in the world(Though recently they are showing signs of a strong resurgence).

I just want Christians to concede that there may be more than one truth, and that's something many Christians will not do. Some will, and some might pay lip service while believing that their truth is the only right one, and many will adamantly insist that there is one truth, they have it, and everyone else is wrong and if only they were "genuinely" seeking or if only they would "open their hearts," then they too could have the one truth.

No, I won't concede to more than one truth, though I will concede to more than one road to arrive at the truth. I have seen many Christians hit other faiths over the head with:John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.I, as a Christian do believe this to be true. Those who come to eternal life in Heaven will be due to the grace of Jesus Christ. I don't decide how or to whom Jesus dispenses his Grace. How could I possibly believe that a man like Gandhi, who lived a very Christlike life, would spend eternity away from God in Hell? Because he was Hindu? I think not. Jesus also taught Christians to judge not, lest, ye too be judged. I couldn't find it, but will link verse later, where an angel of God refused to pass judgement on Satan. The Angel feared condemning anything that God made.

[brvheart 1,752]

Wow.... really? My church sings together every time they meet, at various parts in the service, and those songs are definitely in the loop. As far as the "one path" thing that SB is talking about some Christians disagreeing with, that's a problem. The bible is pretty clear on the one. That being said, it also talks about how some will have a semblance of faith, it just won't be perfect and it won't be enough. Biblically, people can still be "good" people and still not make it to heaven. Tragic, but true.

Of course we sing. Just not those songs.

[brvheart 1,752]

I think the most appropriate way to answer this question would be to quote Cardinal John Henry Newman: "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."In America, there is a very large Protestant population. Those brought up in the Protestant tradition are not encouraged to study early church history for obvious reasons. Unfortunately the Roman Catholic Church gave Luther good reason for his concern back in that time. Catholics in America today give Protestants good reason for concern. The Catholic Church in America may be the most dysfunctional in the world(Though recently they are showing signs of a strong resurgence).No, I won't concede to more than one truth, though I will concede to more than one road to arrive at the truth. I have seen many Christians hit other faiths over the head with:John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.I, as a Christian do believe this to be true. Those who come to eternal life in Heaven will be due to the grace of Jesus Christ. I don't decide how or to whom Jesus dispenses his Grace. How could I possibly believe that a man like Gandhi, who lived a very Christlike life, would spend eternity away from God in Hell? Because he was Hindu? I think not. Jesus also taught Christians to judge not, lest, ye too be judged. I couldn't find it, but will link verse later, where an angel of God refused to pass judgement on Satan. The Angel feared condemning anything that God made.

Christians shouldn't care about demoninations at all. Christ of Christ... Catholics... who cares. Jesus Christ is who we are following. If the church you attend isn't preaching from the Bible and isn't pointing you to Christ. Find a new church.

[Nimue1995 1]

Christians shouldn't care about demoninations at all. Christ of Christ... Catholics... who cares. Jesus Christ is who we are following. If the church you attend isn't preaching from the Bible and isn't pointing you to Christ. Find a new church.

What about those of us who believe in Jesus but for whatever reason at the present time in our lives don't attend a church. Ever since I came to Montana I've had a hard time being comfortable in the churches around here. Most are very conservative and while I'm conservative in some things there's some I just can't agree with like choosing to cut off your family if they are "living in sin". Especially since they're not believers. To me to cut off communication is to cut them off from the only way they might ever know Jesus. And there are a few liberal churches here but they are way too liberal,lol. I have friends in many of the churches I've tried over the years here but it's been a long time since I've attended.

[brvheart 1,752]

What about those of us who believe in Jesus but for whatever reason at the present time in our lives don't attend a church. Ever since I came to Montana I've had a hard time being comfortable in the churches around here. Most are very conservative and while I'm conservative in some things there's some I just can't agree with like choosing to cut off your family if they are "living in sin". Especially since they're not believers. To me to cut off communication is to cut them off from the only way they might ever know Jesus. And there are a few liberal churches here but they are way too liberal,lol. I have friends in many of the churches I've tried over the years here but it's been a long time since I've attended.

Do you want the Biblical answer or the general populace answer?

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Thank you, Lois, Zealous Donkey, and Brvheart, for the articulate, well-thought-out, and above all, gentle answers. I think we actually are making progress in this thread.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I am a huge Monty Python / Little Britain fan, so you'd think I'd be more in tune than most yanks.

Well then you'd know that He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy...