An Apology Of Sorts..

[Nimue1995 1]

This is why I stopped looking at the religious forum as well...it just goes around and around and the posters only convince themselves.I don't want to depress Lois further, and I sure don't want this forum to become another religious forum (although I'm afraid I've done my part by asking if one new idea for Republicans might be basing their agenda on something biblical like Matthew 25:36-41). However, I could use a bit of advice too.Obviously, I'm not a Christian. My former co-workers, with whom I've remained close and for whom I have the utmost respect and affection, certainly knew that, seeing as I've written a book about Buddhism. One of them, a co-founder of the company, is an evangelical Christian, from the "stomping and clapping" kind of church, as he says. When someone like that is suffering, I want to comfort them. I don't want to press Buddhism on them. Even if I've found it helpful, they shouldn't feel pressed when they are in pain. But at the same time, I don't want to quote the bible to them, either. It may comfort them, but they know I don't believe it, and I don't want them to feel I'm being condescending or disrespectful. So I'm never quite sure what to say, and right now I need to say something.Jim and his wife have a seven-year-old and a 3 1/2-year-old named Isabel. Isabel was two months premature and has had a lot of health problems, including something like eight or ten surgeries. For the past year, she had been doing really well, and it seemed that maybe she was beginning to grow out of her problems. She was curious about everything, happy, and outgoing. Over the weekend, she had a cough and had already had an asthma attack. Her parents gave her breathing treatments, but they weren't helping. On Monday, they went to the doctor, and because of her extensive health issues, he wanted her to go to the nearest major children's hospital by helicopter. To help with her breathing, they intubated her for the ride. The intubation caused her heart to fail, and Isabel died despite all their efforts to save her.It's every parent's worst nightmare, and they are in agony. She was only three and a half, and so much of her life was taken up by suffering and struggle. I suppose there really isn't anything I can say that will truly comfort them. At best what I want to say is something like this:That's from the book. I would also say something about not regretting the past. Here's another snippet:[sorry to quote so much (another long post from SB), but the quotes get across the ideas and if I tried to rephrase the same ideas I'd probably end up with something just as long.]I know that Isabel's parents never took her life for granted. They have nothing to regret in the past three and a half years, because they devoted their lives to her and to their other little girl. But they have so much regret for the future, for all the things she should have done and experienced but won't. And I know they may not be able to grieve 100% right now, because it might shatter them both to try to endure that much pain.Knowing that Jim is an evangelical Christian, what would you say to comfort him? Would it be appropriate for me to tell him that she's with God now, since he knows I don't believe that? I just want to find something, anything, that can give him even a tiny shred of comfort right now, and I don't want to do or say anything that might inadvertently make it worse. My dad died when I was nineteen, and I know I still remember with crystal clarity the things that people said that were (accidentally) more hurtful than helpful. [The things that helped the most were just people sharing stories about my dad with me.]There's probably pretty much nothing I can say to help him, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

I don't know that you need to say anything except to express your sympathy for their pain and maybe just say what you said above about her. That she was a curious bright child and that the world was a better place for her having had a place in it. Then the best thing you can do is to take some burden off from them during this time such as making some sandwiches and perhaps a fruit salad. Something they can pick up and eat or even serve to people who might come over. I've found thatduring a time like this, people tend to bring over casseroles and stuff that needs cooking or heating and the last thing grieving parents want to do is think about cooking something. But if there's something there that's easy to pick up and eat chances are they'll be more inclined to do that.

[BaseJester 1]

Have you read this one? I have not, but it's apropos.When Bad Things Happen to Good People

[Loismustdie 0]

This is why I stopped looking at the religious forum as well...it just goes around and around and the posters only convince themselves.I don't want to depress Lois further, and I sure don't want this forum to become another religious forum (although I'm afraid I've done my part by asking if one new idea for Republicans might be basing their agenda on something biblical like Matthew 25:36-41). However, I could use a bit of advice too.Obviously, I'm not a Christian. My former co-workers, with whom I've remained close and for whom I have the utmost respect and affection, certainly knew that, seeing as I've written a book about Buddhism. One of them, a co-founder of the company, is an evangelical Christian, from the "stomping and clapping" kind of church, as he says. When someone like that is suffering, I want to comfort them. I don't want to press Buddhism on them. Even if I've found it helpful, they shouldn't feel pressed when they are in pain. But at the same time, I don't want to quote the bible to them, either. It may comfort them, but they know I don't believe it, and I don't want them to feel I'm being condescending or disrespectful. So I'm never quite sure what to say, and right now I need to say something.Jim and his wife have a seven-year-old and a 3 1/2-year-old named Isabel. Isabel was two months premature and has had a lot of health problems, including something like eight or ten surgeries. For the past year, she had been doing really well, and it seemed that maybe she was beginning to grow out of her problems. She was curious about everything, happy, and outgoing. Over the weekend, she had a cough and had already had an asthma attack. Her parents gave her breathing treatments, but they weren't helping. On Monday, they went to the doctor, and because of her extensive health issues, he wanted her to go to the nearest major children's hospital by helicopter. To help with her breathing, they intubated her for the ride. The intubation caused her heart to fail, and Isabel died despite all their efforts to save her.It's every parent's worst nightmare, and they are in agony. She was only three and a half, and so much of her life was taken up by suffering and struggle. I suppose there really isn't anything I can say that will truly comfort them. At best what I want to say is something like this:That's from the book. I would also say something about not regretting the past. Here's another snippet:[sorry to quote so much (another long post from SB), but the quotes get across the ideas and if I tried to rephrase the same ideas I'd probably end up with something just as long.]I know that Isabel's parents never took her life for granted. They have nothing to regret in the past three and a half years, because they devoted their lives to her and to their other little girl. But they have so much regret for the future, for all the things she should have done and experienced but won't. And I know they may not be able to grieve 100% right now, because it might shatter them both to try to endure that much pain.Knowing that Jim is an evangelical Christian, what would you say to comfort him? Would it be appropriate for me to tell him that she's with God now, since he knows I don't believe that? I just want to find something, anything, that can give him even a tiny shred of comfort right now, and I don't want to do or say anything that might inadvertently make it worse. My dad died when I was nineteen, and I know I still remember with crystal clarity the things that people said that were (accidentally) more hurtful than helpful. [The things that helped the most were just people sharing stories about my dad with me.]There's probably pretty much nothing I can say to help him, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

Let them know you love them and whatever they need, you are there, meals, help cleaning the house, whatever. They might not grieve in front of you but it's a good bet they do it when they are alone, and some of the best things that I have seen others do is just offer to help with normal day to day things that right now may seem crushing to them. It's not much but it's honest and sincere.

[antistuff 0]

Somebody mentioned that they didn't want to depress me any more than I already am.... that's not what this was/is about. As I have been pondering things the past couple of days I don't think it's so much a lack of faith as much as it is seeking a deeper faith, more understanding. The reason I posted what I posted today is because, as antistuff says, this goes around, and around, and around, and to what end, for what? Many are called but few are chosen- those words ring true on this forum as plain as day. My OP was really just an apology, and as I delve deeper in me I find that it's really a combination of everything- I don't like where the country is headed and the only thing I perceive God as doing is stepping aside to teach his peeps a lesson, and I don't want that, not by a long shot. My eyes are open and I see injustice, the fruits of mans ways and it's disconcerting to me to say the least- not a time to seek to question God as you may think, a time to draw closer. Some of you sent me some really nice thoughts, BG, Weishan, Zealous Donkey, a few more I am missing, but thank you all, all very uplifting and much appreciated. It really is dissapointing to me that it always has to go down the "There is no God, you're lying to yourself" road. I can argue all day long with you but the fact is you will do what you do, and we could all easily do shots together and still have a good time. I used to be so hardcore, go at it with anyone, and then I realized that frankly I was much to giving with my time when it comes to that. We should live and let live, and those who actually desire God can come and drink of the waters of life as he says. The rest of you, to each his own, man.

ive come to a similar realization lately. and actually, it can be blamed on you (but its a good thing, i mean none of this against you and i'm actually thankful for it). see, every time you posted about religion i would pull my hair out and bang my head against my desk and get all annoyed. but for what? because there is somebody in the world whose thoughts about a lot of things come damn near to being the polar opposite of mine? i would tell myself its because you are illogical and crazy. so here i am actually getting angry and rationalizing it by telling myself its your fault because youre a big dummy head. well, when i put it that way it comes out to be a pretty dumb thing to get angry about. now, i can see debating these things as an intellectual exercise being fun for some of you. but even then it just goes back and forth with the same thing over and over and its getting old to me.

[vbnautilus 48]

you guys are underestimating the value of these discussions in producing balloon guy one-liners.

[Loismustdie 0]

ive come to a similar realization lately. and actually, it can be blamed on you (but its a good thing, i mean none of this against you and i'm actually thankful for it). see, every time you posted about religion i would pull my hair out and bang my head against my desk and get all annoyed. but for what? because there is somebody in the world whose thoughts about a lot of things come damn near to being the polar opposite of mine? i would tell myself its because you are illogical and crazy. so here i am actually getting angry and rationalizing it by telling myself its your fault because youre a big dummy head. well, when i put it that way it comes out to be a pretty dumb thing to get angry about. now, i can see debating these things as an intellectual exercise being fun for some of you. but even then it just goes back and forth with the same thing over and over and its getting old to me.

Lol'ed at dummyhead. I use doodyhead personally.

[brvheart 1,752]

Are fossils a trick of the devil?

I don't think the devil has anything to do with creation, and neither does the Bible.

I think there is some slight of hand going on in your last series of posts regarding your usage of the words "prove" and "disprove". More on that later. For now, I wonder if you could tell me, did Joseph have two fathers? Because according to MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Jacob was his father. But... LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.So, Choose Your Own Adventure! 1. do you claim translation error or some other human mistake in copying the book after god wrote it? If so, turn to page 45 where we will then have to begin questioning everything else in the bible2. do you bite the bullet and fall back on "its possible he had TWO fathers!" you can't disprove that he didn't! in which case, turn to page 34 where we will continue the discussion about the futility of radical skepticism and how it doesn't solve your dilemma

If you notice... the ENTIRE genealogy is completely different in Matthew and Luke. This is because Matthew is the genealogy of Joseph and Luke is the genealogy of Mary. The reason that the say 'Joseph' in Luke is because it was culturally correct to mention the man's name and not the woman's... but the point is the same. In the first three chapters of Luke, Mary is mentioned like 10+ times and the genealogy in Luke are Mary's ancestors. Remember... Jews trace their lineage through the mothers... so it was important to establish that Jesus' natural lineage through his mother went back to David.

in school, one of my professors was a jesuit priest, and even he admitted that the meaning of the stories are more important than if they are one hundred percent true. thats one of the reasons i find what brvheart says to be so ridiculous.

I've never said that everything is literal. Jesus spoke in parables constantly. I was simply implying that a hypothetically all-powerful God could accomplish everything in the Bible and I don't think it makes sense to say it's not possible when we are talking about an ALL-POWERFUL God.

I think I get your point. The bible is figurative. OK. Full stop.It's important to Brvhrt to demonstrate that the Koran is false by showing that it's not literally true. He's needs a reason to believe one and not the other. That's the context of my post.

I don't remember mentioning that I believe everything in the Bible is literal. I also mentioned that I believe that there are points in the Koran that aren't literal. Completely false is something else entirely.

Terrible situation

I agree with Lois. Tell them you love them and bring them some meals.

[Balloon guy 158]

I think there is some slight of hand going on in your last series of posts regarding your usage of the words "prove" and "disprove". More on that later. For now, I wonder if you could tell me, did Joseph have two fathers? Because according to MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.Jacob was his father. But... LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.So, Choose Your Own Adventure! 1. do you claim translation error or some other human mistake in copying the book after god wrote it? If so, turn to page 45 where we will then have to begin questioning everything else in the bible2. do you bite the bullet and fall back on "its possible he had TWO fathers!" you can't disprove that he didn't! in which case, turn to page 34 where we will continue the discussion about the futility of radical skepticism and how it doesn't solve your dilemma

The book of Matthew was written to the Jewish people.The book of Mark was written to the RomansThe book of Mark was written to the Greek/GentilesThe book of John was written to the ChristiansEach book had a different readship, and as such, to the Jews, the bloodline is passed through the father, which is why the geneaology of Christ focused on the Father son relation to establish His lineage from David, since the Bible clearly said the Messiah would come from the tribe of DavidThe book of Luke gave a greek explanation of the bloodline through the bloodline of His mother, who was a direct descendant of David, thus making the prophecy true as well, but less important to a people who didn't care as much about the Jewish laws about firstborn sonship etc.Think of this. If the Bible was written by man, and they couldn't fix this so called error, then wouldn't there be a slew of other problems? In other words there is a textual critism method called something pretty cool, but means basically, " You attribute intelligence to the author when a 'conflict' exist. you give him the benefit of the doubt till proven otherwise.

[Balloon guy 158]

you guys are underestimating the value of these discussions in producing balloon guy one-liners.

I am here to serve as commanded of me in the Bible1st Generalities chapter 4 verse 25"Keep it light, because thou aren't all that smarteth"

[Balloon guy 158]

I just want to find something, anything, that can give him even a tiny shred of comfort right now, and I don't want to do or say anything that might inadvertently make it worse. My dad died when I was nineteen, and I know I still remember with crystal clarity the things that people said that were (accidentally) more hurtful than helpful. [The things that helped the most were just people sharing stories about my dad with me.]There's probably pretty much nothing I can say to help him, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

I think vb and Theresa said it best.My wife and I lost our first baby together at 5 months from his umbilical cord getting twisted/misformed. 'I'm sorry' was all I needed or wanted from people. Anything else rings of interjecting your own feelings into their pain. Their church will be a good support base.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Thanks, all. Being a southerner, fixing food for them should have been the first thing to come to mind. I only heard about it a few hours ago, so I guess I'm still pretty shocked too.It's true, but sad, that when you're going through the immediacy of grief, there's really not much that helps.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

I think vb and Theresa said it best.My wife and I lost our first baby together at 5 months from his umbilical cord getting twisted/misformed. 'I'm sorry' was all I needed or wanted from people. Anything else rings of interjecting your own feelings into their pain. Their church will be a good support base.

Exactly. That's what I don't want to do, but I wish there were a way I could take some of their pain away. The usual expressions feel so hollow, right when they're needed the most.

[brvheart 1,752]

Exactly. That's what I don't want to do, but I wish there were a way I could take some of their pain away. The usual expressions feel so hollow, right when they're needed the most.

It's just a terrible thing. It sucks so badly.

[Balloon guy 158]

Exactly. That's what I don't want to do, but I wish there were a way I could take some of their pain away. The usual expressions feel so hollow, right when they're needed the most.

Your previous relationhip is more important in expressing your feelings than words can.If you have a friendship, they can see that you hurt for them, and the I'm sorry conveys everything else.

[antistuff 0]

Exactly. That's what I don't want to do, but I wish there were a way I could take some of their pain away. The usual expressions feel so hollow, right when they're needed the most.

this is where we get down on you for being too bhuddist and make fun of your religious dogma

[nutzbuster 7]

I am here to serve as commanded of me in the Bible1st Generalities chapter 4 verse 25"Keep it light, because thou aren't all that smarteth"

lollolololzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I was raised as a strict Catholic and I never heard of such a thing. In fact, when it comes to interpreting the bible, Catholics tend to see much of the language as figurative, not literal. I was a pain in the ass in CCD classes and as a kid I thought I was so clever asking the trick questions... you know... like Eve had 2 sons, where did the other people come from, etc. But the nuns and deacons would tell me that the stories in the bible were life lessons, not everything was recorded. Don't get wrapped up in the hows and whens and the dates and all of that... comprehend the story and don't be surprised if you learn something different each time you read it.Even though I am not a practicing Catholic it so pisses me off when Catholics are perceived incorrectly.

I was raised Catholic too, and most people don't understand that Catholics don't reject Science and don't see a contradiction in Faith and Reason. I blame myself for not learning more when I had the chance. I went through 25+ years alternating between a secular life, and then searching in Protestant churches trying to make sense of my life and the world. For the last three or four years I finally started finding some answers. Where did I find them? In the Catholic Church. It had been there the whole time. I have come full circle. I haven't rejoined the Catholic Church yet, because it requires confessing all my sins of the last 25+ years I am getting ready to pull the trigger. I included below some quotes by JPII on the Church's teaching on Faith and Reason. Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth - in a word, to know himself - so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves.” - Pope John Paul II “Reason and faith cannot be separated without diminishing the capacity of men and women to know themselves, the world and God in an appropriate way.” - Pope John Paul IIIf anyone is interested in reading in detail the actual teachings of the Catholic Church on Faith and Reason you can click on the link below and get all you can eat baby. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_pau...t-ratio_en.html

[Potomophobia 17]

the immunable laws of physics seem to contradict the whole premise of your account. and doesnt the bible claim the earth is only 6000 years old?

It's IMMUTABLE.And I am out of here. When people use gibberish like "immunable" and the word "physics" in the same sentence and no one blinks an eye, we have reached the level of the movie "Idiocracy."I'm sure you and Rose could have some interesting conversations.Best of luck to all of you. You'll need it. It's been fun.

[KramitDaToad 0]

All anyone needs to do to disproven the entire Bible is to find one thing that isn't true. The Bible claims that it is the inspired word of God. If it's wrong about something then the entire thing can be thrown out.

I think Amos is a good example and has modern connections, so it doesn't suffer from the 'were you there defence'Amos 9:14-9:1514 I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.15 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the LORD your God.In September 2005, after Jewish people (that's god's exiled people BTW) were uprooted from their homeland, the Gaza strip and four settlements were handed over to the PalestiniansBut... I wasn't there, so maybe it didn't happenHi El G!

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I've seen this humility argument come up before, and it seems to me exactly backwards. Religion does not cultivate doubt, it cultivates certainty about the nature of the universe. There is no humility in that.

I tried to find a link to the movie "Rudy" but couldn't find it. In one scene Rudy is talking to the priest and asks him for direction. The priest acknowledges that Rudy has done everything he possible can but won't promise Rudy that he will get the outcome he wants.(Be accepted into Notre Dame). The priest states that in all his years of religious studies he has come to two incontrovertible facts. 1. "There is a God." 2. "I'm not him." That is the very essence of humility.

[BaseJester 1]

I don't remember mentioning that I believe everything in the Bible is literal. I also mentioned that I believe that there are points in the Koran that aren't literal. Completely false is something else entirely.

I don't remember reading anything about the Earth being flat in the Koran, to be honest. Do you have any reason that we couldn't read those passages figuratively? In what ways are those passages different than say the Sun standing still in Joshua? And for the record, I don't think that passage is really a contradiction with a heliocentric solar system system. It's just a thing that people can pick out like the flat earth business. It's not, in my opinion, particularly relevant in the scheme of things.

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

When people use gibberish like "immunable" and the word "physics" in the same sentence and no one blinks an eye, we have reached the level of the movie "Idiocracy."I'm sure you and Rose could have some interesting conversations.

so one letter off gets me to the level of rose? seems a little dramatic to me, buddy. but i'm gonna go ahead and tell you to fuck yourself, anyways.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I don't remember reading anything about the Earth being flat in the Koran, to be honest. Do you have any reason that we couldn't read those passages figuratively? In what ways are those passages different than say the Sun standing still in Joshua? And for the record, I don't think that passage is really a contradiction with a heliocentric solar system system. It's just a thing that people can pick out like the flat earth business. It's not, in my opinion, particularly relevant in the scheme of things.

From the Koran:Surah 13:3Surah 18:86, 90Surah 50:7Surah 51:48Surah 78:6-7Surah 79:30Surah 88:20Surah 91:6From the Bible:Prov 8:26-27Isa 40:22Dan 4:10-11Mat 4:8Deu 13:7Deu 28:49Deu 28:64Deu 33:171 Sam 2:10Job 1:7Job 28:24Job 37:3Job 38:13Job 11:9Psa 2:8Psa 19:4Psa 22:27Psa 33:13Psa 33:14Psa 48:10Psa 59:13Psa 61:2Psa 65:5Psa 72:8Readng both lists, it is fairly obvious that the level of ambiguity or 'non-literalism' required to deny one is probably about the same as the other

[strategy 4]

It's IMMUTABLE.And I am out of here. When people use gibberish like "immunable" and the word "physics" in the same sentence and no one blinks an eye, we have reached the level of the movie "Idiocracy."I'm sure you and Rose could have some interesting conversations.Best of luck to all of you. You'll need it. It's been fun.

what planet do you live on? of all the people to disrespect with a hit and run, you choose her, and over THAT?god, you suck. really bad.

[Balloon guy 158]

From the Koran:Surah 13:3Surah 18:86, 90Surah 50:7Surah 51:48Surah 78:6-7Surah 79:30Surah 88:20Surah 91:6From the Bible:Prov 8:26-27Isa 40:22Dan 4:10-11Mat 4:8Deu 13:7Deu 28:49Deu 28:64Deu 33:171 Sam 2:10Job 1:7Job 28:24Job 37:3Job 38:13Job 11:9Psa 2:8Psa 19:4Psa 22:27Psa 33:13Psa 33:14Psa 48:10Psa 59:13Psa 61:2Psa 65:5Psa 72:8Readng both lists, it is fairly obvious that the level of ambiguity or 'non-literalism' required to deny one is probably about the same as the other

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:In verse 1 the speaker is identified as wisdom.I think a better verse would be Proverbs 9:88 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you. the Psalms are song lyrics...