An Apology Of Sorts..

[Balloon guy 158]

Such a book isn't needed. People don't believe in Christianity because there is scientifically sound evidence to do so. They believe despite such evidence; that's what faith is all about. It's not about strength or weakness. It's about a flawed way of determining the truth. Let me put it this way. Assume for a moment that someone comes to have faith in something that is not true. (say that Krishna exists!) This person is in a predicament, because when their belief is challenged by evidence, they take it as a "test of their faith" and are motivated to believe stronger. This is nice if they are right, but keeps them wrong if they are wrong. If they happen to be right, that's great, but any wrong beliefs that come to enjoy the benefit of faith cannot be dislodged. Saying that the available evidence does not suggest that the tenets of Christianity are true is more humble that having absolute certainty that they are true. Relative to someone who recognizes that they do not know anything with certainty, yes. The lack of skepticism is what is at issue here. Religion treats certainty about metaphysical issues as a virtue. Faith is certainty. Doubt, for example of the kind that Lois is experiencing, is not a good thing. He feels guilty about having doubts about a metaphysical issue that he should have doubt about!My point is not ultimately dependent on what the truth of the matter is. It's about what method we use to decide what is true. Whether there is a god or not, we should use all of our faculties of reason to determine what is true.

Don't you hate when the debate falls into 10 different points in the same posts, requiring all those counterpoint quoting? I do.So let's simplify.Faith that the God who performs miracles is what I am devoted to.That faith from a practical standpoint is positive for my life.From my perspective, I have seen miracles, been healed of sickness, and had a transformation in my mind through salvation.You see this as brainwashing/a crutch, and I accept that you see it this way.So when I am confronted with anything, say dinosaurs, I try to understand them from the perspective that God created them also.You firmly believe in evolution and no God, so when confronted with the prophecies of the Bible that came true, you try to explain them from a perspective that they were written after the events. If I was to tell you of my experiences, you would give me your explanations that fit into your worldview that tell me I didn't get healed, haven't seen miracles.Now you are saying I am a blind follower, because when I have challenges, I stick to my core principles, even so far as equating my beliefs as equal to a child's belief in unicorns. I don't think you are intending to be mean about it, which is why we are talking. But you also start a thread postulating that the higher your IQ, the less likely you are in believing God.All this presupposes that there is no God. As long as that is true, your points have some merit. But if not true, your points are much more in line with a person that believes in Unicorns than mine.I subscribe to a faith that has survived attacks from within and without for milleniums, that has been targeted for death by the only world superpower,and been corrupted inside by centuries of man's rules, and has still brought forth the truth that God intended. Men with an axe to grind have tried to bring it down and failed for centuries, and with every turn of the archeologist spade, it's historic accracy has been verified, never compromised.It's a faith that allows the worst in the world to recieve hope, asks people to be good, and gives freely to all people a chance to live better. And if you want to stand here and declare you have proven it wrong, by all means do so, but until you do you are only being argumentative to impress the people that look for any reason to deny God's existance.You're cheerleading for the intellectually lazy.And climbing on the back of a man's thread who was appologizing for his actions and trying to sort out life to do so.

[Balloon guy 158]

I'm curious, does Kramit have some auto-search function that alerts him every time there is a post regarding religion, no matter the sub-forum, so he can mock it?

I'm surprised Crow isn't here yet

[Balloon guy 158]

this right here is why you cant understand what VB is saying. you claim he is starting with assumptions against christianity when in reality he started with nothing and examined the evidence. you claim that god gave us "his bible" and in doing so lose the ability to effectively argue about assumption. and the fact that you dont understand why is the reason this thread will rage on with you never acknowledging that you could be wrong. because to me it seems that that is what this whole thing is about. you claim certainity and proof in a matter that can never be proved or known. you may think it can, but you're wrong.

You are supposing I have been a Christian my whole life.I wasn't, I denied God's existance until I was an adult.In other words, I grew up

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

You are supposing I have been a Christian my whole life.I wasn't, I denied God's existance until I was an adult.In other words, I grew up

no, i didnt suppose anything. i commented on the current nature of your psyche.

[Balloon guy 158]

no, i didnt suppose anything. i commented on the current nature of your psyche.

Sidewalk psychology FTW

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

Sidewalk psychology FTW

i do my psycholging indoors, buddy. sidewalks are for hobos preaching revelation.

[Balloon guy 158]

i do my psycholging indoors, buddy. sidewalks are for hobos preaching revelation.

That is where the icecream truck is, that's where I amAnd I'm not your buddy, pal

[strategy 4]

That is where the icecream truck is, that's where I amAnd I'm not your buddy, pal

are you hiring? I need a job. I can do finance things. thanks in advance.

[CaneBrain 95]

You are supposing I have been a Christian my whole life.I wasn't, I denied God's existance until I was an adult.In other words, I grew up

you are supposing that a miracle could not happen if God does not exist. that never made any sense to me. actually, you are supposing A LOT of things but thats pretty necessary to fervently believe in religion.I say you grew down. It is a much more natural progression to believe in God as a kid and deny his existence as an adult. Finding Christianity does not = finding god in my book. It means you found Christianity. Because there are lots of other religions that also lay claim to this god guy. You found the Jewish god. And you added in a carpenter who allegedly could do some cool stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLYHwEIOws8Let's face it. If you lived in India, and you were "healed of sickness" you would be praying to a cow right now.

[Balloon guy 158]

you are supposing that a miracle could not happen if God does not exist. that never made any sense to me. actually, you are supposing A LOT of things but thats pretty necessary to fervently believe in religion. Finding Christianity does not = finding god in my book. It means you found Christianity. Because there are lots of other religions that also lay claim to this god guy. You found the Jewish god. And you added in a carpenter who allegedly could do some cool stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLYHwEIOws8Let's face it. If you lived in India, and you were "healed of sickness" you would be praying to a cow right now.

Josh McDowell wrote a very good book about this very subject.Since two people's experiences can point them both to things that are opposite, how can experience be used?The end result was that the Bible has no errors like the Jevohah's Witness's bible Does. (I know I know...yes it does, no they don't etc.)But the short form version of this debate is that the Bible from a metaphysical side, has no intellectual flaws like JWs do etc.So when the experience tests is passed, there is more behind it to support it. And Little Dickie Dawkins didn't even come close to having proven anything other than anyone can sell a book about anything.

I say you grew down. It is a much more natural progression to believe in God as a kid and deny his existence as an adult.

It's also a natural progression to challenge the status quo and think you have all the answers and that your elders are wrong.That's why Obama got elected...Trying to bring the discussion back to the topic of this section of the thread.

[Balloon guy 158]

are you hiring? I need a job. I can do finance things. thanks in advance.

Funny story, I once hired a guy, who was pretty good, but kind of burned out on the decorating field.Everyone else on my crew was a big fan of Rush Limbaughs, so they listened everyday to him in the back of the shop.Guy asks me: "Do you guys listen to Rush Limbaugh all day?"I told him: "No, only from 12-3"I have no idea why that story just came up.

[strategy 4]

listening to rush limbaugh makes the list of shit I'd subject myself to for a job at this pointit's not a small list

[Balloon guy 158]

listening to rush limbaugh makes the list of shit I'd subject myself to for a job at this pointit's not a small list

Weird times, but it won't last.I hope

[El Guapo 8]

Weird times, but it won't last.Hope and Change

did the fixy thingy

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

But the short form version of this debate is that the Bible from a metaphysical side, has no intellectual flaws like JWs do etc.So when the experience tests is passed, there is more behind it to support it.

ummmm, yeah. just, ummmm, no. yeah. why? huh? wat? lol?

[vbnautilus 48]

Now you are saying I am a blind follower, because when I have challenges, I stick to my core principles, even so far as equating my beliefs as equal to a child's belief in unicorns. I don't think you are intending to be mean about it, which is why we are talking. But you also start a thread postulating that the higher your IQ, the less likely you are in believing God.All this presupposes that there is no God. As long as that is true, your points have some merit. But if not true, your points are much more in line with a person that believes in Unicorns than mine.

I certainly don't intend to be mean, and I do take some leeway with you because I know you are a good sport about it. But the bolded part is a misunderstanding, the correction of which is very close to the core of what I am saying. Whether or not god exists, believing in things based on faith is an error-prone method for aligning one's beliefs with reality. Whereas what you are saying seems to amount to "if I'm right, then I'm right".

I subscribe to a faith that has survived attacks from within and without for milleniums, that has been targeted for death by the only world superpower,and been corrupted inside by centuries of man's rules, and has still brought forth the truth that God intended. Men with an axe to grind have tried to bring it down and failed for centuries, and with every turn of the archeologist spade, it's historic accracy has been verified, never compromised.It's a faith that allows the worst in the world to recieve hope, asks people to be good, and gives freely to all people a chance to live better.

Largely because it resists changing in response to new evidence. No scientific theory goes without revision for that long.

And if you want to stand here and declare you have proven it wrong, by all means do so, but until you do you are only being argumentative to impress the people that look for any reason to deny God's existance.

I didn't actually say that anywhere. In this thread I have made a point about the dangers of believing something on faith.

You're cheerleading for the intellectually lazy.

This wins the irony of the millenium award. The lazy part is when you decide you know with certainty. That's when the mind turns off. Cultivating doubt and considering new evidence is where the intellectual work is done.

And climbing on the back of a man's thread who was appologizing for his actions and trying to sort out life to do so.

This discussion is not a derailment. It's entirely relevant to Lois's dilemma, and I hope its helpful to him in trying to sort his life out. I'd like him to know that he can be the good person he wants to be without having to suppress his observations about the world or twist them to reconcile with some other things he feels he is supposed to believe.

It's also a natural progression to challenge the status quo and think you have all the answers and that your elders are wrong.

Religion is the only kind of theory that doesn't invite challenge. Aren't you the one who thinks you have all the answers? I know that my knowledge is provisional and subject to revision. Yours is not.

[KramitDaToad 0]

I'm curious, does Kramit have some auto-search function that alerts him every time there is a post regarding religion, no matter the sub-forum, so he can mock it?

I'm omnipotent...... and that's not how you spell 'irony'

[hblask 1]

I'm omnipotent...

Have you tried Viagra?

[brvheart 1,752]

I guess I just wanted to throw out a blanket apology to anyone recently who I have been particularly hard on, there is no excuse for it. I am at a weird place right now- I would like to believe that things could get better but am just not so sure. It's weird, my life is for the most part good, and I will do everything in my power to make it stay that way, but, that being said... you know how it is. Look around, what little light I see follows extended pain. On top of that, and I don't like to talk about it but we all go through it, I am going through what some would call a crisis of faith.. I believe in God, but I just don't get it recently, I don't understand why some things I see happen, happen. Some infant yesterday was attacked in her bassinet by the family chow mix and died of head injuries.. mom put the kid in the bassinet, it happened in a matter of minutes. Why? What good does that do? Now, there will be some who say things like "you can't question God" but the truth is you can, and you should, it's all in how you do it. He has always answered, I just don't have the answers right now, and it's frustrating for me. Now, mind you, I would say most of the things I have said I would still back, I would just say them a bit differently, with a more patient tone is all. Except for Banya, that guy, no soup for him.

Your post and the title of your post appear to be very 'you' focused. Instead, you should focus on God's mercy and patience. He made you exactly how he wanted to make you. Jonah, Lot, and David were all considered Godly men by God himself, and you are as well. Psalm 31:2 - Turn your ear to me; come quickly to my rescue. Be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.Psalm 91:4 - He will cover you with His feathers and under His wings you will find refuge. His faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.Psalm 91:14 - Because he loves me, says the Lord, I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.II Peter 2:9 - .. the Lord knows how to rescue Godly men from trials.[/crazy Christian bs]Sal, your first post was awesomesauce.

[brvheart 1,752]

Lois, pick up CS Lewis's The Problem of Pain.

He could borrow it from LG.

[brvheart 1,752]

Sure- I think about it on a regular basis. I can just-generally- let it go with the blanket "there are some things I cannot understand" which I suspect will be the same thing for me now, I guess right now in my life, for whatever reason, I just want a little more. Some reason for the chaos we see, or, in absence of that the strength or whatever it was that I usually to have to just live and not let the worlds cares get me down. Here is the thing- I can never, in my mind, let myself get to the point where I am saying "You have have got a lot of shit to answer for." At that point, something is wrong with me. I can, however, humbly ask "why?" and look for answers. Faith is worthless having never been challenged. I guess what I am finding is that I look around more, observe more, and enter points in my life where it's not so much about me, thinks effect me more, and I just have to find a way to deal.

[starting crazy talk again]You need to quit trying to figure stuff out on your own and pick up your Bible.[/crazy]

[SuitedAces21 2,722]

[starting crazy talk again]You need to quit trying to figure stuff out on your own and pick up your Bible.[/crazy]

putting those brackets around your nonsense doesnt fool anyone. we know you really believe that shit.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

I'm curious, does Kramit have some auto-search function that alerts him every time there is a post regarding religion, no matter the sub-forum, so he can mock it?

we are legion

[Balloon guy 158]

I certainly don't intend to be mean, and I do take some leeway with you because I know you are a good sport about it.

die

But the bolded part is a misunderstanding, the correction of which is very close to the core of what I am saying. Whether or not god exists, believing in things based on faith is an error-prone method for aligning one's beliefs with reality. Whereas what you are saying seems to amount to "if I'm right, then I'm right".

You are misunderstanding why I say "If". I am saying "If" to bypass the question of whether god exists. In other words, I am saying, let's not get into the bigger question, but for a moment suppose...I do this for two reason, one this discussion isn't supposed to be about whether God exist, but whether faith in God is weakness. 2nd, If I prove God, then I have to go on speaking tours etc.and my golf game will fall apart. I DO NOT WANT TO VOTE FOR OBAMA AGAIN!

Largely because it resists changing in response to new evidence. No scientific theory goes without revision for that long.

Which would make sense if God was just a scientific theory.

I didn't actually say that anywhere. In this thread I have made a point about the dangers of believing something on faith.

But you're implications are that all faith is equal, and dangerous. You degrade my faith by equating it to belief in FSM etc. I have faith in electricity even though I don't get out capicitors work, is my faith dangerous? Actually it's the opposite, because I don't mess with tasers because I have faith the capaciptors work.

This wins the irony of the millenium award.

I wish I was in England where there is no tax on prizes like this.

The lazy part is when you decide you know with certainty. That's when the mind turns off. Cultivating doubt and considering new evidence is where the intellectual work is done.

Although romantic and quaint, this idea only works on paper. In real life you would fail big time if you didn't have foundational truths that you use to see the world. Should we reprove gravity every morning in order to stay challenged?You also assume I have come to my faith without effort to prove it or disprove it. If I have, then why do I need to do it again for you?

This discussion is not a derailment. It's entirely relevant to Lois's dilemma, and I hope its helpful to him in trying to sort his life out. I'd like him to know that he can be the good person he wants to be without having to suppress his observations about the world or twist them to reconcile with some other things he feels he is supposed to believe.

Yea, because moral relativism is such a better way to live your life.I am curious which of the tenants of faith will cause Lois more harm than the belief that that kid who was killed doesn't matter and has ceased to exist completely, AND the action that resulted in the babies death, although 'tragic' in the current societal opinion of things, is in fact only tragic if you take western thought on the value of life into play. Had Lois been born in Papua New Guinea and been of a different tribe than this child, he could instead view this as a good thing for reducing the other tribe's seed, in fact proof that God loves his tribe more than the other one..

Religion is the only kind of theory that doesn't invite challenge. Aren't you the one who thinks you have all the answers? I know that my knowledge is provisional and subject to revision. Yours is not.

The point you miss is that it wouldn't be much of a religion, if it was wrong in the past and had to be revised. Or if it changed it's view of right and wrong based on current political polling numbers. It would instead be a social club like the Elks. Without getting into the argument of whether or not the Bible was indeed written by God, if you grant that it 'could' be written by God, then it also 'could' be just as right as it was 2,000 years ago. Which gets back to my original point, in order for your thinking here to not be completely wrong, you have to hold that the Bible IS NOT God's Word. Yo haven't made the case, therefore you are arguing from a strawman position.

[Zealous Donkey 0]

I'm surprised Crow isn't here yet

Still no Crow?? Now I am starting to get worried.