Al Smooth 0 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Level 2 at LAPC, we've got about 21k in chips, so does villain.Random commerce satellite player raises from utg to 250, folds to us in the sb, we call with Q8dd. (yes I know fold preflop is the best line here, but please comment on flop and further). Player looks back at cards to check suits after the call which leads me to believe that cards are unsuited/paired.Pot 600FlopJh10d9dHero checks, villain bets 350.With the stacks so deep at this point, what's your line here to extract the most value? C/R flop lead turn? Lead the flop? Stop and go? Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-LFC 0 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 obviously a monster flop lol, i think i like the check call here and then possibly check raising the turn if you think villain would bet again? but if he isn't the type to double barrel then i'd probably just check/call then lead turntheres so many different lines to take here,it all really depends on the opponent and how aggressive they are,any reads?? Link to post Share on other sites
MovingIn 0 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 It really depends on the line you generally take on flops, or at least the line you've predominately taken at that particular table. Do you bet a lot of flops? Do you check and call a lot, or c/f a lot of flops? It also depends on how opponents react. If you lead a lot, have they called your flop leads a lot? Are they folding a lot?When we're way ahead and want to extract value, we want to play the hand in a way where it won't raise any eyebrows. So if we lead a lot of flops and get called a lot, then go ahead and lead again. If we c/c a lot and know someone will lead this flop with no real sense of danger, then go ahead and c/c. If our leads fold our opposition a lot, a passive line may suit us here. Previous reads can tell you a lot about how we will get paid off he most here.That said, if we haven't done it much, a c/r will probably kill our action dead even if someone calls the raise, unless we're facing LAGish villains who will spew back at a c/r. If we c/r, get called and check the turn and river, villains will probably check behind and if we're lucky, maybe we get a few extra chips on one street if they think our c/r was a bluff. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I think I put in a raise to about 800 here and try to look skeered. Hopefully, he'll call and we can try to work in another c/r on the turn or check behind if the turn is quite "safe" Link to post Share on other sites
AimHigher 0 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I can't really see any reason why we shouldn't try to get our entire stack into this pot. It's going to be uber hard to do that unless we do anything but check-raise this flop. Also, the board is highly coordinated and hands like AK/AQ/XdXd/JJ/TT/99 all have outs to beat us, as well as all Qx/8x hands having outs to a split. I would check-raise to like 1500. Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I can't really see any reason why we shouldn't try to get our entire stack into this pot. It's going to be uber hard to do that unless we do anything but check-raise this flop. Also, the board is highly coordinated and hands like AK/AQ/XdXd/JJ/TT/99 all have outs to beat us, as well as all Qx/8x hands having outs to a split. I would check-raise to like 1500.Agreed, C/R near pot IMO. After a moment of hesitation of course.I think this is a perfect flop that your aggression could be taken by a pre-flop agressor as using this lower coordinated flop to feign strength against the villian's AA, KK, AK, AQ, or bevy of other hands that hit a larger piece of the flop.I think you'll get paid on your raise, and you still need to protect this hand as there are a relative sample of hands that are still drawing live to pop you. One in hand is worth more than 2 in the bush, or something like that Link to post Share on other sites
SGFULTON83 0 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Call and then lead any turn for about 1/2 pot would be my play. Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I don't like calling at all on this flop. Any diamond could kill our action any straight card kills our action. I mean, yes we could probably get more action with a non-scare card on turn, but I prefer to do this on the flop because it looks like we might be drawing. Link to post Share on other sites
MaxStPolish 4 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I don't like calling at all on this flop. Any diamond could kill our action any straight card kills our action. I mean, yes we could probably get more action with a non-scare card on turn, but I prefer to do this on the flop because it looks like we might be drawing.Yes. There's a ton of holdings that will call your raise. I think your raise in this position looks more like JQ than anything else. Sure you might end up making AK or 77-22 fold, but there's a range of hands that may re-fire at you down, and a LARGE range of hands that will definitely call your raise and take a card on the turn. Making your flush on 4th could ice the action, or just have got you beat. A Q or K on the turn could ice you into a loser, etc. etc. You pop this pot right here on the flop and put in back on the villian. Make it cost, because he's taking at least one more card a lot of the time on that very action filled board Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think we should definitely check/raise flop here. I think there are too many hand combinations that would play aggressively on this flop to worry about KQ. However, if we were to get it all in on this flop, we're never in that bad of shape:- If villain DOES have KQ, we still have a flush draw to suck out with.- If villain has a set, we have the best hand and just have to dodge the board pairing.- If villain has the NFD, we still have the best hand and have to dodge a diamond (cept ofcourse the Jd)I'd check-raise flop to T1,000. Not sure about turn play yet.... Link to post Share on other sites
Gallo 1 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Anyone lead out on this flop and make it look like a blocker bet? A c/r will probably scream monster. By leading out maybe the raiser will re-pop. Link to post Share on other sites
Mercury69 3 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Anyone lead out on this flop and make it look like a blocker bet? A c/r will probably scream monster. By leading out maybe the raiser will re-pop.I was kind of thinking that also...about a 1/3 pot bet...if villain calls, try a c/r on the turn or, if villain raises, timebank it and "reluctantly" call and check-shove the turn. The key to this hand is making the dude think you missed and are trying to bully him off the pot OR make him think he's controlling your play and leading you on...It would take a very special holding to have a chance at outdrawing hero's hand. Link to post Share on other sites
MovingIn 0 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Anyone lead out on this flop and make it look like a blocker bet? A c/r will probably scream monster. By leading out maybe the raiser will re-pop.That would be the line I'd like to take. We don't want villain thinking he's beat. Unless we've aroused suspicions of bluffing at flops in our previous hands, a c/r here on the flop screams monster and could kill our action even if villain has a good piece of this board. There's enough coordination to this board to lead a lesser hand to bail on a c/r or at least call and shut down against any action on an unimproved turn. Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Check/raise and don't stop betting. Link to post Share on other sites
mk 11 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 i mean really...to paraphrase amichai, yeah i'd control the size of the pot here by bloating the chit out of itwhether leading out or c/ring is best depends on the opponent, and we pry can't provide much insight there outside of what you give uswhat seems certain is the only way to possibly not get action from a hand that would otherwise give action is by doing something like c/cing since it polarizes your range to exactly monsters and draws, and if any remotely scary card falls ott or riv, villain can probably fold like, a set.... Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Also besides flopping the nut or straight flush, this is the next best flop. You shouldn't be calling a 5x UTG raise OOP if youre contemplating controlling the pot when you smash the flop like this. Link to post Share on other sites
BeaverStyle 1 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 Also besides flopping the nut or straight flush, this is the next best flop. You shouldn't be calling a 5x UTG raise OOP if youre contemplating controlling the pot when you smash the flop like this.I assumed blinds were at 50/100 at this point... but maybe I'm wrong? Link to post Share on other sites
Al Smooth 0 Posted February 24, 2009 Author Share Posted February 24, 2009 Also besides flopping the nut or straight flush, this is the next best flop. You shouldn't be calling a 5x UTG raise OOP if youre contemplating controlling the pot when you smash the flop like this.2.5x raise..it was 50-100 Link to post Share on other sites
looshle 6 Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 2.5x raise..it was 50-100still just as bad imo, for the same reasons Link to post Share on other sites
Vtlaxer09 4 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 c/raise all 3 streets. Link to post Share on other sites
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