Balloon guy 158 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 You have created a strawman."Let's say that we establish that the only way for something to be true, is for it to be true in this way.Therefore, the bible cannot be true."Let's turn it around.The history of the world has shown that left alone, all people have an internal belief in a Creator, in fact only communist and anarchist really place any likelyhood in atheism being a viable lifestyle. Therefore atheism is basically a virus that keeps cropping up trying to destroy the natural direction of societies. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I wonder if other christians agree with you on that. I mean, we have established that our desert islanders can't know about the whole "guy on a cross" incident. If you think that kind of detail is not important, then we have no issue, but I suspect that many christians won't take that view.Let's say you took this argument to God one week before Christ was born on earth.Do you think He would have been forced to abandon His plans for the salvation of mankind since your logic says that since what is about to happen, can't be proven true to someone in 2,000 years without God writing it down and preserving the story for all of history?He might have answered: "Good thing I have a plan to have this all written down and preserved throughout the entire span of human existance then, isn't it?" Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 This is a great question. But if Jesus IS God, as the Bible claims... then they are the same. no?Also, the verse that Lois always quotes but doesn't know the reference, so I can't quote.... is that if you seek God you will find Him.One of these?"8": Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. "7": Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:"8": For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."9": Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?"10": Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?"11": If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"12": Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 You have created a strawman."Let's say that we establish that the only way for something to be true, is for it to be true in this way.Therefore, the bible cannot be true."Let's turn it around.The history of the world has shown that left alone, all people have an internal belief in a Creator, in fact only communist and anarchist really place any likelyhood in atheism being a viable lifestyle. Therefore atheism is basically a virus that keeps cropping up trying to destroy the natural direction of societies.But the question isn't about religion in general, it's about your specific version. While history shows that people around the world independently generate a belief in a creator, it also shows that the vast majority of those people do not develop a belief in Christianity. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 22, 2009 Author Share Posted February 22, 2009 Let's say you took this argument to God one week before Christ was born on earth.Do you think He would have been forced to abandon His plans for the salvation of mankind since your logic says that since what is about to happen, can't be proven true to someone in 2,000 years without God writing it down and preserving the story for all of history?He might have answered: "Good thing I have a plan to have this all written down and preserved throughout the entire span of human existance then, isn't it?"This is so circular I can barely wrap my mind around it, but I think you saying that bible is necessary for discovering the truth, but if it isn't there god will just make a new copy for those who don't have it? So the truth can always be figured out because there will always be a bible around? Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 But the question isn't about religion in general, it's about your specific version. While history shows that people around the world independently generate a belief in a creator, it also shows that the vast majority of those people do not develop a belief in Christianity.could christians claim that christianity is an evolved form of worship? because the "gods" that early man created were based on nature and science has proven that it isnt "gods" at all, perhaps jesus is the inevitalbe end of religous thought. an entity that science cannot explain. so the answer could possibly be that given enough time, they would arive at a reasonable jesus like god. if i were arguing against you i would say that the name "jesus" is irrelavant and only the idea of what he represents matters. but then i would have to wonder if these "island" people would ever come up with the idea that "god" would send his "son" down to earth to save them. perhaps is all i can say. i dont know.but i wouldnt want to argue the christian side on this one. because its obvious that there can be no explanation that validates the importance of christian traditions. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 But the question isn't about religion in general, it's about your specific version. While history shows that people around the world independently generate a belief in a creator, it also shows that the vast majority of those people do not develop a belief in Christianity.People aren't born with the knowledge of almost anything per se, everything is passed down/taught to them.So God created a way for His explanation of life to get out, and He's made it readily available. And He's commanded His followes to spread the news.What you are asking for is for the Truth of God to be always in front of us in a manner that removes any doubt, then freedom of choice and the value of faith would be negated.Look at it this way, if God made the earth with the price tag hanging around the north pole and the do no remove sticker on the bottom of each rock, then you would be 'forced' to believe in a new earth. Therefore your belief in God would be of no greater value than your belief in the sun.For whatever reason, God values faith. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 This is so circular I can barely wrap my mind around it, but I think you saying that bible is necessary for discovering the truth, but if it isn't there god will just make a new copy for those who don't have it? So the truth can always be figured out because there will always be a bible around?No, I'm saying that the Bible has been preserved since it's original copy, to allow mankind to find the truth.Compare that to the belief in reincarnation, there is a code you must follow, and your actions in following this code results in your next life and it's comfort level. You were bad you come back poor and weak, you were good, you come back rich and beautiful. Yet there is no real explanation of the code you are being asked to adhere to, nor any explanation of why you are being asked to follow it. It is more of a manmade excuse for why some people are rich and others are poor. The Bible on the other hand gives you a clear picture of who God is, what is expected, and it gives you a manner of achieving the whole enchilada, removing any man's ability to dictate your eternal destination, by accepting what Christ did for us. The price is free, the result is eternal happiness. And in the manner this is explained, it gives us clear direction for living our lives here, directions that I think most people agree with. Love your neighbor, give to the poor, defend the helpless, help the sick, etc.Man has corrupted the message many times and in many ways, but the Bible remains true, and the message is intact.And if you choose to not believe, you are doing it because God allows you to reject him. Once you have a 'provable' explanation of God, you remove that freedom.And yes I see the 'circular' reasoning of God 'hiding'. But the truth is, not one person reading this now can say they didn't know about Christ and what He did on the cross, so while the guy in farthest Africa may have an excuse, you all don't. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,753 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Let's run this as an actual experiment. The island (let's call it "America") should be isolated from other societies for a long time. I'll bet you that these people living in "America" don't come up with Christianity on their own, but do develop religions that have some parallels. But the question isn't about religion in general, it's about your specific version. While history shows that people around the world independently generate a belief in a creator, it also shows that the vast majority of those people do not develop a belief in Christianity.I'm not sure why it's not obvious to you guys that we can't possibly agree since we have different starting points. Of COURSE people couldn't come up with Christianity on their own. Why would I or any other Christian want Christianity to randomly 'develop'. That would totally disprove the authenticity of Christianity. We believe that God is real and that Jesus is God's son. Where it 'develops' is 100% up to God. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,753 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 LOL.It's equally funny that you aren't aware that this already happens. Also, thanks for the quality post. Debate wouldn't be the same without you.I've personally heard missionaries speak that have gone to an area and had people expecting them. It's only possible if God is real. If he's made up then it doesn't matter. Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 It's equally funny that you aren't aware that this already happens.i'm aware you think it happens. i'm aware you desperately want it to be true. I've personally heard missionaries speak that have gone to an area and had people expecting them. It's only possible if God is real. If he's made up then it doesn't matteryeah, the only possible explanation for that would be "god" told them. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 People aren't born with the knowledge of almost anything per se, everything is passed down/taught to them.I think its interesting that you phrase it this way. I would have said that people are born with very little knowledge but can seek it. I think that's an illustrative difference between us: you see people as passive recipients of knowledge, while I see them as the active creators of it. So God created a way for His explanation of life to get out, and He's made it readily available. And He's commanded His followes to spread the news.What you are asking for is for the Truth of God to be always in front of us in a manner that removes any doubt, then freedom of choice and the value of faith would be negated.No, I don't think there's any reason to ever do away with doubt. That's actually another difference between the religious mindset and the scientific one: we cultivate and maintain doubt, whereas you guys are sure about all this. Look at it this way, if God made the earth with the price tag hanging around the north pole and the do no remove sticker on the bottom of each rock, then you would be 'forced' to believe in a new earth. Therefore your belief in God would be of no greater value than your belief in the sun.For whatever reason, God values faith.I don't think any deep knowledge comes easy. The point of disagreement is about where to look for that knowledge. I think its located in nature itself. For instance, the truth about the benefits of compassion are available if you look at the relationships between people and the way they work -- it isn't necessary to read a book about it or to listen to a preacher. That's how different religions all over the world independently arose with similar teachings. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 No, I'm saying that the Bible has been preserved since it's original copy, to allow mankind to find the truth.Compare that to the belief in reincarnation, there is a code you must follow, and your actions in following this code results in your next life and it's comfort level. You were bad you come back poor and weak, you were good, you come back rich and beautiful. Yet there is no real explanation of the code you are being asked to adhere to, nor any explanation of why you are being asked to follow it. It is more of a manmade excuse for why some people are rich and others are poor. The Bible on the other hand gives you a clear picture of who God is, what is expected, and it gives you a manner of achieving the whole enchilada, removing any man's ability to dictate your eternal destination, by accepting what Christ did for us. The price is free, the result is eternal happiness. And in the manner this is explained, it gives us clear direction for living our lives here, directions that I think most people agree with. Love your neighbor, give to the poor, defend the helpless, help the sick, etc.All that is stuff that makes your religion very nice (in your view), but doesn't have anything to do with whether its true or not. And if you choose to not believe, you are doing it because God allows you to reject him. Once you have a 'provable' explanation of God, you remove that freedom.I think that is a misunderstanding of how reasoning based on empirical evidence works. That there is evidence for something never necessitates that it is believed. There was always evidence that the earth was round, but no one was forced into believing that. There is evidence for newtonian physics, but we are not compelled to believe that either, and as we find new evidence we adjust. There is a preponderance of evidence for evolution and, well, you know about choice when it comes to that. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm not sure why it's not obvious to you guys that we can't possibly agree since we have different starting points. Of COURSE people couldn't come up with Christianity on their own. Well, they did once. They just aren't likely to do so again independently. Why would I or any other Christian want Christianity to randomly 'develop'. That would totally disprove the authenticity of Christianity. We believe that God is real and that Jesus is God's son. Where it 'develops' is 100% up to God.You wouldn't want it to randomly develop. You would want it to reliably develop. A truth that is independently discovered over and over again is more likely to be valuable. That many cultures have happened upon the idea that killing is to be discouraged is a testament to the universal value of that rule. The fact that very few cultures came up with the story of how Ganesh got his elephant head is an indication of the narrow, culture-specific meaning of that story. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 could christians claim that christianity is an evolved form of worship? because the "gods" that early man created were based on nature and science has proven that it isnt "gods" at all, perhaps jesus is the inevitalbe end of religous thought. an entity that science cannot explain. so the answer could possibly be that given enough time, they would arive at a reasonable jesus like god.I'm sure some of them believe some form of this, but its hard to see how one could effectively argue this point.if i were arguing against you i would say that the name "jesus" is irrelavant and only the idea of what he represents matters. but then i would have to wonder if these "island" people would ever come up with the idea that "god" would send his "son" down to earth to save them. perhaps is all i can say. i dont know.I think the name 'jesus' is irrelevant, and he certainly was not the first or last person to discover self-sacrifice. In fact, there is evidence that even the cross-with-a-guy-on-it symbol predated jesus and was part of the greek mystery cults that eventually informed christianity. Anything valuable that some dude in the middle east realized is independently realizable now by anyone, anywhere. Link to post Share on other sites
SuitedAces21 2,722 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Her breasts have been chopped off and they look blue and deflated, the nipples a disconcerting shade of brown. Surrounded by dried black blood, they lie rather delicately, on a china plate I bought at the Pottery Barn on top of the Wurlitzer jukebox in the corner, though I don't remember doing this. I have also shaved all the skin and most of the muscle off her face so that it resembles a skull with a long, flowing mane of blond hair falling from it, which is connected to a full, cold corpse; its eyes are open, the actual eyeballs hanging out of their sockets by their stalks. Most of her chest is indistinguishable from her neck, which looks like ground-up meat, her stomach resembles the eggplant and goat cheese lasagna at Il Marlibro or some other kind of dog food, the dominant colors red and white and brown. A few of her intestines are smeared across one wall and others are mashed up into balls that lie strewn across the glass-top coffee table like long blue snakes, mutant worms. The patches of skin left on her body are blue-gray, the color of tinfoil. Her vagina has discharged a brownish syrupy fluid that smells like a sick animal, as if that rat had been forced back up in there, had been digested or something. I spend the next fifteen minutes beside myself, pulling out a bluish rope of intestine, most of it still connected to the body, and shoving it into my mouth, choking on it, and it feels moist in my mouth and it's filled with some kind of paste which smells bad. After an hour of digging, I detach her spinal cord and decide to Federal Express the thing without cleaning it, wrapped in tissue, under a different name, to Leona Helmsley. I want to drink this girl's blood as if it were champagne and I plunge my face deep into what's left of her stomach, scratching my chomping jaw on a broken rib. The huge new television set is on in one of the rooms, first blaring out The Patty Winters Show, whose topic today is Human Dairies, then a game show, Wheel of Fortune, and the applause coming from the studio audience sounds like static each time a new letter is turned. I'm loosening the time I'm still wearing with a blood-soaked hand, breathing in deeply. This is my reality. Everything outside of this is like some movie I once saw. In the kitchen I try to make meat loaf out of the girl but it becomes too frustrating a task and instead I spend the afternoon smearing her meat all over the walls, chewing on strips of skin I ripped from her body, then I rest by watching a tape of last week's new CBS sitcom, Murphy Brown. After that and a large glass of J&B I'm back in the kitchen. The head in the microwave is now completely black and hairless and I place it in a tin pot on the stove in an attempt to boil any remaining flesh I forgot to shave off. Heaving the rest of her body into a garbage bag, my muscles slathered in Ben-Gay, easily handling the dead weight's, I decide to use whatever is left of her for a sausage of some kind. Link to post Share on other sites
BaseJester 1 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I'm not sure why it's not obvious to you guys that we can't possibly agree since we have different starting points. Of COURSE people couldn't come up with Christianity on their own. Why would I or any other Christian want Christianity to randomly 'develop'. That would totally disprove the authenticity of Christianity. We believe that God is real and that Jesus is God's son. Where it 'develops' is 100% up to God.Brvhheart, my only point was that there isn't a need to construct a hypothetical island since there's a perfectly good one to reference in history. Link to post Share on other sites
brvheart 1,753 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 Well, they did once. They just aren't likely to do so again independently. You wouldn't want it to randomly develop. You would want it to reliably develop. A truth that is independently discovered over and over again is more likely to be valuable. That many cultures have happened upon the idea that killing is to be discouraged is a testament to the universal value of that rule. The fact that very few cultures came up with the story of how Ganesh got his elephant head is an indication of the narrow, culture-specific meaning of that story.I think they wouldn't do it independently, because it's true. You think it's man-made. We are at an impasse.Brvhheart, my only point was that there isn't a need to construct a hypothetical island since there's a perfectly good one to reference in history.we agree Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I think its interesting that you phrase it this way. I would have said that people are born with very little knowledge but can seek it. I think that's an illustrative difference between us: you see people as passive recipients of knowledge, while I see them as the active creators of it.That and heightNo, I don't think there's any reason to ever do away with doubt. That's actually another difference between the religious mindset and the scientific one: we cultivate and maintain doubt, whereas you guys are sure about all this.cultivating doubt is based on recognition of your inability to know, not in an alturistic superior method of thought. And our faith in our knowledge is different than yours, because our faith is in the 'Who' is the one with all the answers, not in our own knowledge.I don't think any deep knowledge comes easy. The point of disagreement is about where to look for that knowledge. I think its located in nature itself. For instance, the truth about the benefits of compassion are available if you look at the relationships between people and the way they work -- it isn't necessary to read a book about it or to listen to a preacher. That's how different religions all over the world independently arose with similar teachings.Really? Nature teaches you that caring for the sick and elderly is the better way? You sure nature doesn't teach you the exact opposite? Christianity taught things completely contrary to standard knowledge, the first shall be last, if you want to lead, you must serve, if you give from your heart, you give the most you can. The basis for Christianity is horrible if you want to overthrow the yoke of the oppressive Romans, since it tells you to render unto Ceaser, and to pray for those put in charge over you. It would be horrible for a group to control others through the priesthood, "there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. The way to salvation is to ask and recieve, one on one with God, no middle man needed. The Bible says to give to the poor because your reward is in Heaven.You'll have to excuse me if you want to make the point that all this is manmade since we can't figure it by ourselves.Christianity should never have survived, it was considered a subset of Judism, which was a religion at odds with the empire, and was the chosen whipping religion by many Roman Ceasers. There were much 'better' religions around, ones that appealed much better to our base desires, like gods of war and sex. Christianity asked people to turn the other cheek, and remain pure in your sexuality. Other religions gave people ways to bribe god to get their selfish ways, Christianity asked people to put aside their selfish ways and adopt God's selfless ways.Nope, nature doesn't allow for Chrisitianity to develope, any more than it allows for the knowledge of God's ability to know everything, hear all prayers, and be everywhere at once. something completely foriegn to all things natural, yet comfortably understood by everyone. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 That and heightI guess I should trust you on all this, since you can probably see heaven from up there. cultivating doubt is based on recognition of your inability to know, not in an alturistic superior method of thought. And our faith in our knowledge is different than yours, because our faith is in the 'Who' is the one with all the answers, not in our own knowledge.Isn't knowing 'who' has all the answers a form of your own knowledge? Why is it ok that there is no doubt about that? Really? Nature teaches you that caring for the sick and elderly is the better way? You sure nature doesn't teach you the exact opposite?Absolutely. The idea that nature is purely brutal and selfish is religious propaganda. Christianity taught things completely contrary to standard knowledge, the first shall be last, if you want to lead, you must serve, if you give from your heart, you give the most you can.That stuff is not contrary to the knowledge of anyone who has spent any time really thinking about it. Recent research has shown that chimpanzees and some other apes show cooperation, self-sacrifice, and a sense of fairness. Complete individual selfishness can not survive in any social species. Not to mention the same basic lesson is in pretty much every culture around the world - its in the Bhagavad Gita, its in the Greek Mysteries, etc. etc. The basis for Christianity is horrible if you want to overthrow the yoke of the oppressive Romans, since it tells you to render unto Ceaser, and to pray for those put in charge over you. It would be horrible for a group to control others through the priesthood, "there is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ. The way to salvation is to ask and recieve, one on one with God, no middle man needed. The Bible says to give to the poor because your reward is in Heaven.You'll have to excuse me if you want to make the point that all this is manmade since we can't figure it by ourselves.I don't quite understand what you are getting at here, but surely the church achieved great political power. Christianity should never have survived, it was considered a subset of Judism, which was a religion at odds with the empire, and was the chosen whipping religion by many Roman Ceasers. There were much 'better' religions around, ones that appealed much better to our base desires, like gods of war and sex. Christianity asked people to turn the other cheek, and remain pure in your sexuality. Other religions gave people ways to bribe god to get their selfish ways, Christianity asked people to put aside their selfish ways and adopt God's selfless ways."Never should have survived" if one thinks that only selfish things have a good chance of surviving... Nothing in nature is truly independent. The extent to which people think of themselves as separate, independent, selfish beings disconnected from each other and from the earth is the extent to which they destroy themselves. Compare the way the native americans treated the land as part of themselves to what we have done to it. Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 I guess I should trust you on all this, since you can probably see heaven from up there. No but I can hit my head on ceiling fansIsn't knowing 'who' has all the answers a form of your own knowledge? Why is it ok that there is no doubt about that?I guess I see your point, if all knowledge is equal. I don't have faith that gravity works, I have proof. I don't have proof that God exist , I have faith. So sure there is a difference. The question is does the difference have a value level?Absolutely. The idea that nature is purely brutal and selfish is religious propaganda. Nature vs NurtureThat stuff is not contrary to the knowledge of anyone who has spent any time really thinking about it.That would explain why I don't, I hardly ever REALLY think about anything.Recent research has shown that chimpanzees and some other apes show cooperation, self-sacrifice, and a sense of fairness. Complete individual selfishness can not survive in any social species.Insert Connecticut joke here. Not to mention the same basic lesson is in pretty much every culture around the world - its in the Bhagavad Gita, its in the Greek Mysteries, etc. etc.I don't think you are right here, there are many principles of Christianity that are not found in other religions, but let's agree to disagree on this since I don't want to look it all up again.I don't quite understand what you are getting at here, but surely the church achieved great political power.Catholic church was much more political than religious for most of it's history."Never should have survived" if one thinks that only selfish things have a good chance of surviving... Nothing in nature is truly independent. The extent to which people think of themselves as separate, independent, selfish beings disconnected from each other and from the earth is the extent to which they destroy themselves. Compare the way the native americans treated the land as part of themselves to what we have done to it.If nothing in nature is truly independant, than the world is a symbiotic being? Lucky everything 'evolved' at the same rate then. Just one thing falls off the march, and the whole thing comes crashing down. Link to post Share on other sites
vbnautilus 48 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Share Posted February 23, 2009 Nature vs. Nurture If nothing in nature is truly independant, than the world is a symbiotic being?I have no quarrel with that description. Lucky everything 'evolved' at the same rate then. Just one thing falls off the march, and the whole thing comes crashing down.I don't get the rate of evolution thing. But sure, you've probably heard of the Butterfly Effect, the idea that say, a butterfly flapping its wings in Brazil can set off a hurricane in the Caribbean. (especially since you are an Ashton Kutcher fan) Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 What you are asking for is for the Truth of God to be always in front of us in a manner that removes any doubt, then freedom of choice and the value of faith would be negated.Look at it this way, if God made the earth with the price tag hanging around the north pole and the do no remove sticker on the bottom of each rock, then you would be 'forced' to believe in a new earth. Therefore your belief in God would be of no greater value than your belief in the sun.For whatever reason, God values faith.cult-speak Link to post Share on other sites
crowTrobot 2 Posted February 23, 2009 Share Posted February 23, 2009 cultivating doubt is based on recognition of your inability to know, not in an alturistic superior method of thought. And our faith in our knowledge is different than yours, because our faith is in the 'Who' is the one with all the answers, not in our own knowledge.incredible flaming cult-speak Link to post Share on other sites
Balloon guy 158 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 cult-speakunabletocomeupwithanarguement speak Link to post Share on other sites
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