This Seems Like A Very Bad Way To Convince Me..

[nutzbuster 7]

I just have to say (and not necessarily in relation to this thread, it just made me think of it) FCP Bob is one of the most under-rated posters in these discussions. Even when I disagree with him, his ideas are well thought out and totally defensible.And I'm not just sucking up so that he won't ban me for that one thread in OT......

banhammer one time!

[Balloon guy 158]

Let's not let these types of stories and discussions take us away from the simple fact that Men > womenIt's science

[Loismustdie 0]

I agree with this completely.

Thirded.

[Loismustdie 0]

Let's not let these types of stories and discussions take us away from the simple fact that Men > womenIt's science

Global warming science or actual science?

[CaneBrain 95]

Global warming science or actual science?

kentucky science.http://www.creationmuseum.org/edit: 21.95 for a one day pass? at a museum? now, that's sacrilege.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Avaron, or FCP Bob, why do you think this man chose beheading as the method of the murder?

[antistuff 0]

Every religion has it's nuts. Some of them even are in the media. Every sex scandal that involves a Christian preacher also focuses on the Christian aspect rather than the human one. Human beings of every religion share human flaws. It seems that Muslim fundalmentalism is in the same place now as 15th century Christianity.

its really funny that you posted this as a reply to one of lois' posts.

[Avaron 0]

Avaron, or FCP Bob, why do you think this man chose beheading as the method of the murder?

does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?

[theresa113 0]

From dictionary.com...Religion:1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudiceCulture:1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc.2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc.3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture.4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training.5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture. Religion influences culture but the 2 are not the same. One is faith based the other is based on what the society holds as a reflection of their quality of life.That being said, many religious interpretations has viewed women as subservient to men and some to the degree that women are the actual property of men. And yes, this goes on in the US as well. Do some reading on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and you will see how religious interpretation created a cult leader that dictated a culture of suppressing the rights of women. I know many men joke on this forum from everything about women poker players to prostitutes but keep in mind that you are perpetuating a culture that devalues women when you do this. Don't get me wrong, I can take what most posters say as tongue and cheek, especially the ones that riddle their responses with sarcasm and wit. However, there is a young group reading it taking comments seriously and you can tell by their lack of intellect posts. So I just ask all of you when you make a joke or comment about women, think how it would affect your mom, your sister, your wife and your daughter. To change world view we need to change the view of our own domains. Anyway... what a somber thread. I hope something positive can come out of these shared views and stories.

[Loismustdie 0]

does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?

No, but it could give insight to who he was as a person, his wants, his desires, his goals, his belief system. To deny that is just being blind. And, well said Theresa, although I think it's a little unwarranted. We love the wimmins here at FCP. Seriously, though, a dictionary doesn't define an area of the world where Religion is culture, the area defines itself. Actually, to be honest, I am a little surprised by your post- on the surface it seems very pro women but it actually isn't. You bring up the issue of prostitutes and I can't help thinking that you should be all for prostitution, a womans or a mans right to do with her body as she sees fit, by choice. I am thinking taking a stance against prostitution based on the fact that women are involved would be a dangerous position to take whilst being pro womens rights. Furthermore I wonder if the supporting of such a career choice from the various men on this site actually makes them pro womens rights in ways many would never dare to be. These guys are cutting edge in my mind. I wrestle with this in that I am against Prostitution from a biblical standpoint but from a real world standpoint it always seemed to me that sin is sin, and you might as well get paid if you so desire. I also don't buy into the hype from some of the Hookers on the point type shows, there is a whole slew of of these women that aren't covered because they make to much money and are perfectly fine with who they are. Think Bunny Ranch, which takes a more tongue in cheek look at it, but those women are into the craft if you will. It just seems like you would support that in my mind.

[theresa113 0]

Let's do this picture style:Religious ObservationCultureDoes spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc. Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.

[Loismustdie 0]

Let's do this picture style:Religious ObservationCultureDoes spiritual beliefs influence culture? Yes, through clothing, how we eat, art, etc. Is clothing, food, art, music religion? No. It is a reflection of the daily lives of people with commonalities which could be where they live or their held beliefs.Anyway... the point I really wanted to make is just respect everyone and recognize that even the actions we take can have influence on our own society.

Well, now I am just hungry.

[theresa113 0]

Lois...I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously. My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.

[DonkSlayer 1]

does that really matter? does the fact that he beheaded his wife make it a worse murder than a bullet in the head?

Yes it does, in terms of this discussion, and get off your relativist high-horse. Fundamentalist islamic influence is a dangerous force against life and human rights in this world, and while you can pick and choose examples from other religions and cultures, nothing changes that fact...if Islam was the only religion on earth OR if every other religion inspired even more violence, it doesn't change the fact that this was most likely an honor killing inspired by a cultural fundamentalism deeply intertwined with Islam. Period. Unbelievable that you even took the time to post this intellectually-absurd question set. If the husband just wanted to kill the wife, there are cleaner, more efficient, and less evidence-leaving ways of doing it. Morever, it was done in a method that is represented in the historical record by muslim men committing honor killings (btw, this guy is a pakistani, not an arab).

[DonkSlayer 1]

Lois...I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously. My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.

Is it appropriate to sum up your collective posts as "the pervailing issue here is lack of respect for women and women's rights, so much so that it's inconsequential whether islam-influenced culture inspired this woman to be beheaded?"

[Loismustdie 0]

Lois...I am not for or against women poker players or prostitutes. My point was the comments made... like "Yeah, I am going to Vegas to gamble, do some blow and bang some prostitutes." "How cool man... make sure you give it to her in the butt... etc." It is the jokes that sometimes sting, the ones that sound like a total disregard to women. Granted, I am aware that much of it is just male bravado and or sarcasm. However, I am sure there are a few male posters who take stuff like that seriously. My comment was not whether or not prostitution should be legal or what my morale or ethical belief is on the subject. I think prostitution goes way beyond a woman's right to control her own livelihood and her body. In our society my heart breaks for the majority of prostitutes because most are in the business to support a drug habit. Many are abused by their customers and there is little or no protection for them. I have never traveled anywhere where prostitution is legal and where women choose the profession as a career. In theory, it sounds great that a woman can choose to sell her body as a commodity to make money. But in reality, it seems that most women enter prostitution in the US not as a choice but as a side affect of poverty and or drugs. So I have no real stance one way or the other since it appears that prostitution is way more complex than a simple answer of yes I agree with it or no I do not.

Fair enough, but prostitution is legal in all states, it's just sold under the guise of pornography, and if I remember correctly you like the porn, whihc can be just as destructive to a woman. That being said, so can working at Jack in the Box. My daughter was just chortling to herself in her sleep, that was funny to see.

[theresa113 0]

Is it appropriate to sum up your collective posts as "the pervailing issue here is lack of respect for women and women's rights, so much so that it's inconsequential whether islam-influenced culture inspired this woman to be beheaded?"

Yes, because I do feel any culture or society can take any religious written word and twist it to repress a group within their own group. I think we should be aware that injustices against people happen everywhere including our own backyard. A beheading is dramatic and the Islam culture is so different than ours that it is easy to focus on the injustices that happen there. It would be tough to find many people in our culture who would support such an act. However, we as a society can easily turn our heads and ignore certain injustices that happen in our own territory. I think Bob's post was spot on.Lois... I am anything but a black and white kind of gal. Even when it comes to porn I have inner debates.I think sex is the best gift we have to express ourselves to another person. I think an orgasm is a gift from God or what ever higher power or design there is. And I think there is some porn out there that is well made and can show people how to express themselves better to their sexual partners. However, unfortunately pornography has also been used to harm innocent people. I am totally against any kind of pornography that has people in it against their will or people who were not aware that they were being filmed. I am against pornography that has anyone in it who is not a legal adult.

[Loismustdie 0]

Yes, because I do feel any culture or society can take any religious written word and twist it to repress a group within their own group. I think we should be aware that injustices against people happen everywhere including our own backyard. A beheading is dramatic and the Islam culture is so different than ours that it is easy to focus on the injustices that happen there. It would be tough to find many people in our culture who would support such an act. However, we as a society can easily turn our heads and ignore certain injustices that happen in our own territory. I think Bob's post was spot on.Lois... I am anything but a black and white kind of gal. Even when it comes to porn I have inner debates.I think sex is the best gift we have to express ourselves to another person. I think an orgasm is a gift from God or what ever higher power or design there is. And I think there is some porn out there that is well made and can show people how to express themselves better to their sexual partners. However, unfortunately pornography has also been used to harm innocent people. I am totally against any kind of pornography that has people in it against their will or people who were not aware that they were being filmed. I am against pornography that has anyone in it who is not a legal adult.

I'm a hot mess, too. No shame in it.

[Avaron 0]

Yes it does, in terms of this discussion, and get off your relativist high-horse. Fundamentalist islamic influence is a dangerous force against life and human rights in this world, and while you can pick and choose examples from other religions and cultures, nothing changes that fact...if Islam was the only religion on earth OR if every other religion inspired even more violence, it doesn't change the fact that this was most likely an honor killing inspired by a cultural fundamentalism deeply intertwined with Islam. Period.

i don't speculate on what it was, to find that out is the job of the local law enforcement agency. and as long as nothing else is proven, i view this as a murder as they happen all over the world all the time. there had been murders with beheading before, and sure, it shows that the murderer is in some way mad. but it does not always have to do something with his religion, just because it's the most obvious possibility.

Unbelievable that you even took the time to post this intellectually-absurd question set. If the husband just wanted to kill the wife, there are cleaner, more efficient, and less evidence-leaving ways of doing it. Morever, it was done in a method that is represented in the historical record by muslim men committing honor killings (btw, this guy is a pakistani, not an arab).

what do we know about the background story and his mindset when he was doing it? maybe he was out of control, mad and in some kind of murderous frenzy and in that state of mind, people tend not to think very logically. what do we know?just to make it clear: i don't think that it is impossible that his muslim background could play a role. but i don't want to prejudge, but wait for evidence.

[vbnautilus 48]

Theresa, I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture. No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight. Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.

[akoff 0]

Can't we all just agree that as long as the dishes are done and sex is not withheld for more then a week killing you wife is bad.

[Southern Buddhist 1]

Donkslayer, you've been hearing the same state news I have about the Virginia Tech Chinese engineering student who beheaded another Chinese grad student. Is that beheading indicative that Asian culture, or Asian engineers, are driven by their culture to behead women regularly?Salon called this a case of "murder while Muslim" -- because the perp is Muslim, we assume Muslim-ness had something to do with it, just like "driving while black" must mean on the way to a drug deal. Just because it may be true once in a while is no reason to assume it's always true.

[Balloon guy 158]

Theresa, I think your definitions miss the point of the relationship between religion and culture. No one is saying that all culture is religion. But all religion is a form of culture. Culture is the collective practices and customs of a people. That includes religion. None of the aspects of culture - art, language, dress, food, daily schedule - can be separated from religion in much of the world, and specifically in Islamic lands this relationship is very tight. Why do you think the muslim religion had to be twisted in order to contain the values that it does which don't hold women in equal regard (among other things)? I remind you again that Mohammed himself had 13 wives. That a woman needs to have permission to divorce her husband, that women must be covered. etc. is all in the canonical religious text of the religion, it is not a perversion.

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.Christianity elevated woman higher than any other religion, and it did it 2000 years ago.But I do agree with your position that religion is the single greatest influence on culture, that's why America is so great.

[CaneBrain 95]

Gal 3:28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.Christianity elevated woman higher than any other religion, and it did it 2000 years ago.But I do agree with your position that religion is the single greatest influence on culture, that's why America is so great.

No the BIBLE elevated women higher. Christianity has an extremely checkered past on women's rights (the puritans and their witch hunts being a colorful example). The two are really not the same thing. America is great because we (allegedly) welcome all religions and try to incorporate numerous cultures.....in fact, some of America's greatest moves consisted of ignoring or eventually abandoning Christianity's position on an issue. (Overcoming the temperance movement...ironically something driven by Christian women.....and repealing Prohibition was one of our greatest moments. We did something foolish/did not consider the consequences because of religious driven hysteria about the evils of booze but we realized our error and instead of sticking with it we made the change.)

[Balloon guy 158]

No the BIBLE elevated women higher. Christianity has an extremely checkered past on women's rights (the puritans and their witch hunts being a colorful example). The two are really not the same thing. America is great because we (allegedly) welcome all religions and try to incorporate numerous cultures.....in fact, some of America's greatest moves consisted of ignoring or eventually abandoning Christianity's position on an issue. (Overcoming the temperance movement...ironically something driven by Christian women.....and repealing Prohibition was one of our greatest moments. We did something foolish/did not consider the consequences because of religious driven hysteria about the evils of booze but we realized our error and instead of sticking with it we made the change.)

I might have picked ending slavery, maybe freeing Europe, even inventing Tang, but ending prohibition as one of our 'greatest moments'?