Folding Aces Pre-flop

[DonkSlayer 1]

Anyone who for 1 microsecond think that folding AA preflop is ever a good idea, except for in a satellite where you are already guaranteed a prize, isn't a winning player.

I haven't read the responses after this one, but I think I would fold AA if I was deep in the money in a tourney, each place gives you $100k more, and there are 3-4 allins in front of me, all of which cover.

[Andynice20 0]

I've actually had the experience of folding A's preflop only once. It was an Act III satellite to the WPT Foxwoods Poker Classic $10k Main Event. We're down to 15, top 12 get seats. I'm second chip leader in the tourney. The chip leader raises UTG, 2 shorter stacks (prob about 50% of my chips) shove, the third chip leader (who has about 80% of my chips) shoves over the top. I'm on the button with A's. While I'm thinking, UTG is already asking how much and counting out his chips. I really tank it and end up folding. UTG insta calls.UTG - K'sSS1 - 7'sSS2 - 10cJcCO - J'sCase J hits the turn. 2 are eliminated and the former chip leader is now the shortstack. He ends up going out a few minutes later.Note this format is prob the only time I do this, where the amount of chips you accumulate isn't what matters, its lasting past the bubble.

[Merby 3]

This is why Hellmuths ROI in WPTs is like -70%.

The only good that came out of my opening this thread was seeing your new avatar......that and learning that there is a possibility that Phil Helmuth is in fact JFarrell...

[GreeneStreet 0]

I have to admit, every time I see AA in my hand I get both elated and think about folding. They can be traps.That being said, I would never fold them preflop.

[byaaatch 0]

I've actually had the experience of folding A's preflop only once. It was an Act III satellite to the WPT Foxwoods Poker Classic $10k Main Event. We're down to 15, top 12 get seats. I'm second chip leader in the tourney. The chip leader raises UTG, 2 shorter stacks (prob about 50% of my chips) shove, the third chip leader (who has about 80% of my chips) shoves over the top. I'm on the button with A's. While I'm thinking, UTG is already asking how much and counting out his chips. I really tank it and end up folding. UTG insta calls.UTG - K'sSS1 - 7'sSS2 - 10cJcCO - J'sCase J hits the turn. 2 are eliminated and the former chip leader is now the shortstack. He ends up going out a few minutes later.Note this format is prob the only time I do this, where the amount of chips you accumulate isn't what matters, its lasting past the bubble.

I know in this situation that it is +EV to fold but no matter what that is still a wow move. I mean I totally understand the concept but I truly wonder if I was in that situation if I would do it.

[Snamuh 0]

Anyone who for 1 microsecond think that folding AA preflop is ever a good idea, except for in a satellite where you are already guaranteed a prize, isn't a winning player.

This isn't true. If you are at the final table of a tournament 3 handed with a chip amount that is a micro fraction of the other two stacks and those two stacks go all-in in front of you, folding your AA there is likely to be the most +EV play. Extremely situational though.

[Snamuh 0]

FWIW if Hellmuth truly believed this and folded AA preflop, then it would be insanely profitable to just open shove every hand preflop against him.

[whining 0]

AA versus 9 opponents pf = 31%8 opponents pf = 34%7 opponents pf = 38%6 opponents pf = 43%5 opponents pf = 49%4 opponents pf = 56%3 opponents pf = 64%2 opponents pf = 73%1 opponent pf = 85%Information according to pokernews hand calculator.If you are up against 8 other opponents, most likely there would be no aces left as you would prolly be up against AK, AQ plus KK QQ, meaning you would prolly most likely to hit a str8 (also very unlikely).

I was actually very bored one day and calculated the exact cards at a ten handed table that would give aa the best winning percentage possible. I think the cards were:You AsAc2. Ks8c3. Kc8h4. KdKh5. Qs7c6. Qd7h7. 7d7s8. QcQh9. 8d8s10. Ad9hNow hands 2,3,8, and 9 are drawing dead.Hand 4 can win with a heart flushHands 5, 6, 7, can win with a straight (if there are not 4 spades or clubs on the board) or straight flushHand 10 can get a diamond flush, split with a wheel, or trip nines provided an ace doesnt fall, or quad ninesI think the AsAc was about a 90% favorite to win. I don't have my figures anymore.If someone else is bored, they could plug those hands into a computer simulator to get the exact percentages.If you do that, correct me if there are better hands to go against ten handed.

[bahlgren342 0]

Wait, so you'd fold getting 9-1 if you were in a 50-50 situation?

I really don't know. It would have to be very situational, like said earlier. Not sure If I wanna throw $10k away on a 50-50 first hand if I felt confident that I could build my chips otherways. I probably wouldn't anyways, I'd see them blurt all in. Then hope that everyone has the hands said earlier and be a 90% favorite! lol

[chgocubs99 0]

Ladies and gentlemen, the FCP strat forum!

[slink 1]

You AsAc2. Ks8c3. Kc8h4. KdKh5. Qs7c6. Qd7h7. 7d7s8. QcQh9. 8d8s10. Ad9hI think the AsAc was about a 90% favorite to win. I don't have my figures anymore.

You 89%2. Ks8c 0%3. Kc8h 0%4. KdKh 1%5. Qs7c 0%6. Qd7h 0%7. 7d7s 0%8. QcQh 0%9. 8d8s 0%10. Ad9h 6%We all realize this is extremely hypothetical (and a dream situation for the Aces), but I would speculate that hands, 2,3,5,6 would not come along in this shovefest.More "likely" would be:You AsAh 19%2. KsKh 0%3. QcQs 0%4. 8h8d 21%5. AcKc 6%6. AdQd 2%7. 4c4d 15%8. KhQh 10%9. 10hJh 9%10. 7c7s 18%

[Zach6668 513]

AA versus 9 opponents pf = 31%8 opponents pf = 34%7 opponents pf = 38%6 opponents pf = 43%5 opponents pf = 49%4 opponents pf = 56%3 opponents pf = 64%2 opponents pf = 73%1 opponent pf = 85%Information according to pokernews hand calculator.If you are up against 8 other opponents, most likely there would be no aces left as you would prolly be up against AK, AQ plus KK QQ, meaning you would prolly most likely to hit a str8 (also very unlikely).

You realize AA is AHEAD, right? You don't need to HIT anything.

I really don't know. It would have to be very situational, like said earlier. Not sure If I wanna throw $10k away on a 50-50 first hand if I felt confident that I could build my chips otherways. I probably wouldn't anyways, I'd see them blurt all in. Then hope that everyone has the hands said earlier and be a 90% favorite! lol

No. It's not situational. You're getting 9-1. If you are 12% to win, you call. It's simple.

You 89%2. Ks8c 0%3. Kc8h 0%4. KdKh 1%5. Qs7c 0%6. Qd7h 0%7. 7d7s 0%8. QcQh 0%9. 8d8s 0%10. Ad9h 6%We all realize this is extremely hypothetical (and a dream situation for the Aces), but I would speculate that hands, 2,3,5,6 would not come along in this shovefest.More "likely" would be:You AsAh 19%2. KsKh 0%3. QcQs 0%4. 8h8d 21%5. AcKc 6%6. AdQd 2%7. 4c4d 15%8. KhQh 10%9. 10hJh 9%10. 7c7s 18%

And it's still a call.This thread is why people will continue to suck at poker.It's not the notion of folding AA, it's the complete misunderstanding of basically every poker theory every derived.

[BudBundy 0]

I knew this thread was going to cause an aneurysma in Zachary.

[simo_8ball 0]

It is funny how people think 50% is relevant in poker.

[slink 1]

You realize AA is AHEAD, right? You don't need to HIT anything.No. It's not situational. You're getting 9-1. If you are 12% to win, you call. It's simple.And it's still a call.This thread is why people will continue to suck at poker.It's not the notion of folding AA, it's the complete misunderstanding of basically every poker theory every derived.

Never said I would fold it.Just kickin' around some numbers for S&G's chief.

[hank213 1,823]

Zach what about Andy's situation? 1st and 12th get same payday and you have multiple players allin close to the bubble with a healthy stack As he stated, there's no need to try and give yourself the best chance to win the tourney since the payday is perfectly flat you only need to survive past the bubble.I think one caveat is the short stacks. If you have 2 or 3 players very short then I could see the value of getting away from it pre, since they are going to be forced to get it in with less than premium hands later, this is magnified if the level is about to end. If, on the other hand, the only short stacks at the table are already all in and everyone else at the table is fairly healthy then folding would be a bad play.

[Zach6668 513]

Never said I would fold it.Just kickin' around some numbers for S&G's chief.

I didn't say you'd fold it, I just quoted your post because you put the numbers. I was just saying, for the benefit of whoever reads it, that it's still a call.

[Zach6668 513]

Zach what about Andy's situation? 1st and 12th get same payday and you have multiple players allin close to the bubble with a healthy stack As he stated, there's no need to try and give yourself the best chance to win the tourney since the payday is perfectly flat you only need to survive past the bubble.I think one caveat is the short stacks. If you have 2 or 3 players very short then I could see the value of getting away from it pre, since they are going to be forced to get it in with less than premium hands later, this is magnified if the level is about to end. If, on the other hand, the only short stacks at the table are already all in and everyone else at the table is fairly healthy then folding would be a bad play.

Satellite bubbles are a different beast altogether.His situation seems like a decent spot to fold it, but I haven't looked that hard.In a cash game, or normal tournament setting (ie, not one dealing with huge payout bumps and ridiculous multiway all in situations which are incredibly remote), AA is never a fold.

[hank213 1,823]

Satellite bubbles are a different beast altogether.His situation seems like a decent spot to fold it, but I haven't looked that hard.In a cash game, or normal tournament setting (ie, not one dealing with huge payout bumps and ridiculous multiway all in situations which are incredibly remote), AA is never a fold.

Concur. Does that mean I'm a good player now?

[Zach6668 513]

Concur. Does that mean I'm a good player now?

Absolutely.

[TraptSteve 0]

Wait, so you'd fold getting 9-1 if you were in a 50-50 situation?

Depends on how good you are compared to your table, maybe you gamble with it having IVey, and another top pro at your table. Risking your tournament life that early is the biggest concern.According to your logic, if you have 9-8s in this same situation, you'd snap call because of the odds you were being layed?

[Gonger 0]

Depends on how good you are compared to your table, maybe you gamble with it having IVey, and another top pro at your table. Risking your tournament life that early is the biggest concern.According to your logic, if you have 9-8s in this same situation, you'd snap call because of the odds you were being layed?

well if there was a lot of people all in, like stated before the hands would most likely be AQ AK AJ KK QQ JJ, possibly even AA, so if you were holding 9-8s your more likely to hit a str8 or a flush, 2 pair, trips who knows at that point, i like 9-8s great hand. If it was the first hand of the main event and i had position and a majority of the players moved in and i had AA then i would probably think REALLY hard and it would probably come down to what my gut told me to do. BUT if it were later on in the tourny and there is a lot of money in a pot preflop and someone gets you all in I think you would have to be some kinda Poker God to lay down rockets.

[SCS 0]

Depends on how good you are compared to your table, maybe you gamble with it having IVey, and another top pro at your table. Risking your tournament life that early is the biggest concern.According to your logic, if you have 9-8s in this same situation, you'd snap call because of the odds you were being layed?

You are vastly overrating your abilities if you think that you can lay down AA preflop getting great odds and find more +ev spots later on.

[SCS 0]

well if there was a lot of people all in, like stated before the hands would most likely be AQ AK AJ KK QQ JJ, possibly even AA, so if you were holding 9-8s your more likely to hit a str8 or a flush, 2 pair, trips who knows at that point, i like 9-8s great hand. If it was the first hand of the main event and i had position and a majority of the players moved in and i had AA then i would probably think REALLY hard and it would probably come down to what my gut told me to do. BUT if it were later on in the tourny and there is a lot of money in a pot preflop and someone gets you all in I think you would have to be some kinda Poker God to lay down rockets.

If you're gut doesn't tell you to instacall with AA then you or someone else needs to punch your gut. Because your gut sucks at poker.

[looshle 6]

Depends on how good you are compared to your table, maybe you gamble with it having IVey, and another top pro at your table. Risking your tournament life that early is the biggest concern.According to your logic, if you have 9-8s in this same situation, you'd snap call because of the odds you were being layed?

no it depends on if you're a complete moron or not.if you ever willingly folded getting 9:1 in a 50/50 situation, it would be the worst play in the history of poker.