Always Finish Just Out Of The Pays

[wallygmoney7 0]

i am new to the site and usually play in mainly freeroll mtt. i have had several good finishes but usually come up just short of the payouts. any suggestions on how to break threw to start a bankroll? also have 2 shots at the heads final for the heads up tourney so any advice will help need to make top 56 two b in as im sure you are all aware of . thanks ahead of time for any advice

[slink 1]

Play better.

[Chris-LFC 0]

my advice would be to put $10 on pokerstars and just play some 10c tournaments or something like that,its a lot easier than playing freerolls

[nosoul 0]

i am new to the site and usually play in mainly freeroll mtt. i have had several good finishes but usually come up just short of the payouts. any suggestions on how to break threw to start a bankroll? also have 2 shots at the heads final for the heads up tourney so any advice will help need to make top 56 two b in as im sure you are all aware of . thanks ahead of time for any advice

This is going to sound like horrible advice, but in the freerolls it actually works. Play normal, stack building poker for the first hour or so. Once 75% of the field has been eliminated (down to 750 or so in a field of 3000), hopefully you'll have around an average stack. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. Wait for a hand where multiple people in front of you push preflop. Having a good size all-in with two callers before you is ideal. Go all-in behind them with any two cards. Obviously, most of the time you'll miss and be knocked out. The one time you win the hand, though, you can cruise to the money and be done with the freerolls.With fields that size, you HAVE to get lucky at some point. So, try to get lucky in a spot where there's already a lot of money in the pot. After winning that hand, pick on the small stacks. Don't get into any confrontations with somebody with more chips than you.

[kkot 0]

This is going to sound like horrible advice, but in the freerolls it actually works. Play normal, stack building poker for the first hour or so. Once 75% of the field has been eliminated (down to 750 or so in a field of 3000), hopefully you'll have around an average stack. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. Wait for a hand where multiple people in front of you push preflop. Having a good size all-in with two callers before you is ideal. Go all-in behind them with any two cards. Obviously, most of the time you'll miss and be knocked out. The one time you win the hand, though, you can cruise to the money and be done with the freerolls.With fields that size, you HAVE to get lucky at some point. So, try to get lucky in a spot where there's already a lot of money in the pot. After winning that hand, pick on the small stacks. Don't get into any confrontations with somebody with more chips than you.

QFTThe only difference between freerolls and real money MTTs is that the players are much much worse. Math and EV doesn't change so shipping ATC without fold equity is just awful. You should be doing is the same thing that you would do in a real money tournament. Adjust to the poor play and exploit everyone's likely tendency to call too much. That means take your good hands and value bet them relentlessly. Take your marginal hands and value bet. Again, bluff-shoving into players who already committed their stack is simply not going to work.

[nosoul 0]

The only difference between freerolls and real money MTTs is that the players are much much worse.

The size of the fields tend to be larger in freerolls. The blind structure for freerolls tends to be faster.

Math and EV doesn't change so shipping ATC without fold equity is just awful.

Not really. You need chips. Period. It's a tournament, you can't reload. That's why I said you should do this with multiple people pushing, you want their stacks. You don't want them to fold. If you have 72o and you're up against AA, JJ, and KQ, you'll mathematically win 1 in 10 times. If nobody has a pair, i.e. you're up against AK, KQ, and JT, you'll win 1 in 5. If you can cash after only 5 or 10 tournaments, you're set. You now have real money and go play the real games. Like you said, that math doesn't change. You're guaranteed to win a hand eventually. The down side? You lose the $0 you bought in with. The upside? Real cash. That's +EV.

You should be doing is the same thing that you would do in a real money tournament.

Agreed. To do well in a large tournament, at some point you HAVE to get lucky. Whether you do it intentionally or not, it needs to happen at some point.

Adjust to the poor play and exploit everyone's likely tendency to call too much. That means take your good hands and value bet them relentlessly. Take your marginal hands and value bet.

That works fine until the blinds start going up insanely fast, you go from twice the average stack to less than average in only a couple rounds, you find yourself not getting any premium starting hands, and players pushing left and right so you can't see a flop for less than half your stack. Or, heaven forbid, that 20% chance that your aces will get cracked happens and you lose your stack.Back to your math and EV point, if you get your entire stack in with aces or kings against an under pair 3 times, you're only 50% to still be in the tournament. Most of the situations you get your chips in for aren't even that good. Usually 60/40's the best you can hope to get. 60% to win 3 times? Only 22% to survive all 3. Taking a 20% chance on one hand with a huge pot isn't really that bad of an idea. You're usually taking a similar chance, anyway, just spreading it out over a few hands. You also tend to get more chips out of it this way. To get the other players to put in their entire stack as a 40% dog, they usually need to be short stacked, but even a large stack will put in everything preflop if they have aces. When that happens and you manage to crack their aces, you're sitting pretty.

Again, bluff-shoving into players who already committed their stack is simply not going to work.

It's not a bluff. They already shoved. You're mathematically guaranteed to win one of those hands at some point. When you do, you'll have a great stack to work with from there.To answer the question nobody asked: why do this later in the tournament? Why not do it early? Because the blinds go up too fast later. Early in the tournament, you can try playing small ball for a while and try to build your stack safely. You don't have enough runway to do that later. You need to get a huge stack to make yourself comfortable relative to the blinds again. So, when a situation comes up where a few people have already put a bunch of chips in, go for it. The one time you take that pot down, you'll be right where you need to be.

[RsHwK 0]

lol, that could be the worst advice I have ever seen. In the early rounds of the freeroll, you want to play premium hands and value bet them like crazy. Don't try to play hands like small pocket pairs or suited connectors unless you are getting a good price to enter the hand. As the blinds start going up, you should open up your range of starting hands and look to be aggressive, but smart. Steal blinds when the opportunity presents itself. You should continue to play small ball throughout the entire tournament. What I mean is that as the blinds continue to climb higher, you want to start playing hands that can turn into monsters (this is where the suited connectors and small pocket pairs come into play. Now that being said, don't call any raise with these hands. Typically you want to be raising with these hands in position or looking to see a cheap flop. Look to c-bet most flops after you raise preflop and fold to resistance.As the bubble approaches, most people become super passive, and this is a great time to pad your chip stack without risking a large portion of your stack. Please do not listen to nosoul's advice of just shoving any two cards deep in the tourney in a multi way pot. That is going to get you busted 9 times out of 10, and trust me, its not a winning strategy.I'm sure you've watched poker tournaments on tv, so let me ask you this: Do you ever see poker pros just shoving random hands all in into multi way pots right before the money? The answer is definitely not. It's clearly not a winning strategy since NOBODY that is any good at poker would implement it. Play aggressively and smart. If you do these things, I promise you will see success sooner or later.They don't call it a grind for nothing.... Hope this helps

[The Evil Polka Man 0]

Well, his logic is that you fail to lose money, but, if you do triple up or whatever, will win money. It's a terrible strategy though, since you'd be wasting much more time that if you had played correctly.

[kkot 0]

Every single word of this is simply wrong and you have serious fundamental flaws in your game.

[nosoul 0]

I'm sure you've watched poker tournaments on tv, so let me ask you this: Do you ever see poker pros just shoving random hands all in into multi way pots right before the money? The answer is definitely not. It's clearly not a winning strategy since NOBODY that is any good at poker would implement it. Play aggressively and smart. If you do these things, I promise you will see success sooner or later.

No, but I also don't see them go from an average stack to short stacked after two or three blind increases without playing a hand. The tournaments they show on TV don't have 8,000 players and only last 4 or 5 hours.Y'all may consider it a fundamental flaw, but I finished ITM 5 times, with two final tables and one win.I'm not suggesting you do this all the time. Only once during the tournament if the opportunity presents itself. During the 2nd hour of the tournament, they usually thin the field from 4,000 players to under 1,000. During that stretch, the blinds go up so fast that a normal strategy is a crap shoot, anyway. Sure, one option is to wait for a good hand, in which case you'll probably get blinded down to where your only option is to shove preflop and hope it holds up. You may double up, but then the blinds will go up 5 minutes later and you'll be short stacked again. Even if you get good hands during that run, after 3 all-ins you're still less than 25% or so to survive. Unless you get aces 3 times, in which case you're around 45% to survive. Or, if the opportunity comes up where you can triple or quadruple up in one hand, you can take your shot at picking that up before you become short stacked.And my math wasn't wrong. You WILL pick up those pots every now and then.I admitted that it could get you busted 9 times out of 10. That's the worst case, BTW. You'll win the hand more often than that. What do you lose by getting busted? Nothing. It's a freeroll. What happens if you win the hand? Finishing ITM is no longer the question. It then becomes a question of whether or not you'll reach the final table.Would I use this strategy in regular tournaments? No. But I also wouldn't pay to enter a tournament that had a blind structure like the freerolls.

[mtdesmoines 3]

No, but I also don't see them go from an average stack to short stacked after two or three blind increases without playing a hand. The tournaments they show on TV don't have 8,000 players and only last 4 or 5 hours.Y'all may consider it a fundamental flaw, but I finished ITM 5 times, with two final tables and one win.I'm not suggesting you do this all the time. Only once during the tournament if the opportunity presents itself. During the 2nd hour of the tournament, they usually thin the field from 4,000 players to under 1,000. During that stretch, the blinds go up so fast that a normal strategy is a crap shoot, anyway. Sure, one option is to wait for a good hand, in which case you'll probably get blinded down to where your only option is to shove preflop and hope it holds up. You may double up, but then the blinds will go up 5 minutes later and you'll be short stacked again. Even if you get good hands during that run, after 3 all-ins you're still less than 25% or so to survive. Unless you get aces 3 times, in which case you're around 45% to survive. Or, if the opportunity comes up where you can triple or quadruple up in one hand, you can take your shot at picking that up before you become short stacked.And my math wasn't wrong. You WILL pick up those pots every now and then.I admitted that it could get you busted 9 times out of 10. That's the worst case, BTW. You'll win the hand more often than that. What do you lose by getting busted? Nothing. It's a freeroll. What happens if you win the hand? Finishing ITM is no longer the question. It then becomes a question of whether or not you'll reach the final table.Would I use this strategy in regular tournaments? No. But I also wouldn't pay to enter a tournament that had a blind structure like the freerolls.

I see a twisted logic behind this. I actually do. It's like you're walking past O'Shea's and a floor person says come in and take one pull on this slot for free. If you win, you keep the money. If not, you're not out anything. You're not going to NOT pull even though you know slots are -EV, because it's a free pull. Likewise, this strategy is poor poker strategy and it's -EV. But you're playing with .... "house money" in a free roll for lack of a better word. I think if you keep shoving in freerolls, granted that the number of freerolls is virtually infinite, you're going to win one. The FLAW is that the greater number of player will prob win a freeroll SOONER by playing it "properly" instead of this -EV ... "style." I don't know if I've made this worse or better.

[qyayqi 11]

i disagree with waiting an hour to 'get lucky'. if you're going to jam for a stack, do it in the first 15 minutes when people are playing almost any 2 cards. once you have a stack you can play sound poker & pick up loads of dead money. when i played these i liked playing a very wide range if 3 people are all in in that first 15 minutes. 6k stack & reasonable poker skill will take you deep. having crazies covered in the first hour is very good for your eventual results.i wouldn't waste an hour before magically deciding to get lucky.

[nosoul 0]

I see a twisted logic behind this. I actually do. It's like you're walking past O'Shea's and a floor person says come in and take one pull on this slot for free. If you win, you keep the money. If not, you're not out anything. You're not going to NOT pull even though you know slots are -EV, because it's a free pull. Likewise, this strategy is poor poker strategy and it's -EV. But you're playing with .... "house money" in a free roll for lack of a better word. I think if you keep shoving in freerolls, granted that the number of freerolls is virtually infinite, you're going to win one. The FLAW is that the greater number of player will prob win a freeroll SOONER by playing it "properly" instead of this -EV ... "style." I don't know if I've made this worse or better.

That's a good analogy. Every time I played "properly" I'd either get knocked out before the money or barely get in. I didn't start going deep until I started hitting b.s. after getting horribly out flopped or something like that. So, I started shooting for the b.s. on purpose if there was a huge pot. It's kind of like the Gigabet Dilemma on steroids. You take the -EV odds for one hand to greatly increase your position in the tournament.In case people have forgotten the Gigabet discussion, it's here and here

[nosoul 0]

i disagree with waiting an hour to 'get lucky'. if you're going to jam for a stack, do it in the first 15 minutes when people are playing almost any 2 cards. once you have a stack you can play sound poker & pick up loads of dead money. when i played these i liked playing a very wide range if 3 people are all in in that first 15 minutes. 6k stack & reasonable poker skill will take you deep. having crazies covered in the first hour is very good for your eventual results.i wouldn't waste an hour before magically deciding to get lucky.

I wait an hour because I usually have 5k or 6k by the end of the first hour. If I triple or quadruple up, I end up with around 20k when most players are still down around 3k or 4k. I prefer that to having 6k when most people still have 2k.

[dizzlerock 0]

I think the key to this conversatoion is that is a freeroll. Like stated in an earlier post what do you have to lose by trying this eventually youll suck and be huge in chips which gives you the best chance to win and if u lose on to the next FREEROLL. How can this be -ev when its free.

[MovingIn 0]

I think the key to this conversatoion is that is a freeroll. Like stated in an earlier post what do you have to lose by trying this eventually youll suck and be huge in chips which gives you the best chance to win and if u lose on to the next FREEROLL. How can this be -ev when its free.

I think the issue is the time investment. nosoul's idea calls for hours of solid play, and then donk-shoving behind multiple shovers in the middle game and hoping to get lucky. That's time you could put to better use in, say, actual cash MTTs playing a consistently solid strategy. Who wants to put in 2 hours of work stack building, and then, in the cases where you do build a stack instead of bust early, immediately donk out ~90% of the time?

[kkot 0]

I think the issue is the time investment. nosoul's idea calls for hours of solid play, and then donk-shoving behind multiple shovers in the middle game and hoping to get lucky. That's time you could put to better use in, say, actual cash MTTs playing a consistently solid strategy. Who wants to put in 2 hours of work stack building, and then, in the cases where you do build a stack instead of bust early, immediately donk out ~90% of the time?

Exactly. If you're going to play completely recklessly, you might as well do it in the first few minutes so you aren't wasting time. But playing solid poker for an hour or two and then donk-mashing all your chips in for no reason is simply a waste of all that solid poker.

[nosoul 0]

Exactly. If you're going to play completely recklessly, you might as well do it in the first few minutes so you aren't wasting time. But playing solid poker for an hour or two and then donk-mashing all your chips in for no reason is simply a waste of all that solid poker.

The problem is the blind schedule. The blinds increase 10 fold the 2nd hour. At the start of the 2nd hour, the blinds are 100/200. At the end of the hour, they're 1k/2k. So, let's say you push early, get 6k in chips that you grind up to 8k at the end of the first hour. You now have 40BBs to play with. You continue to grind the next hour and wind up with 10k (the 2nd hour swings pretty badly due to fold equity being zero due to the short stacks always being all-in). How are you rewarded for your steady grind? You did nothing wrong, played great, and went from 40BB down to 5BB. The next time the blinds go up, you're only option is preflop shoves.The point being, playing solid poker the entire time will get you knocked out 9 times out of 10 anyway. It doesn't increase your stack fast enough to keep up with the blinds. Your best bet to go really deep in one of these things is to take down a huge pot during that 2nd hour.

[nosoul 0]

I think the issue is the time investment. nosoul's idea calls for hours of solid play, and then donk-shoving behind multiple shovers in the middle game and hoping to get lucky. That's time you could put to better use in, say, actual cash MTTs playing a consistently solid strategy. Who wants to put in 2 hours of work stack building, and then, in the cases where you do build a stack instead of bust early, immediately donk out ~90% of the time?

Oh, absolutely. If you have the money to buy into the regular tournaments, don't play the freerolls. Only play the freerolls if you don't want to deposit your own money or are completely broke and don't have any money to deposit. Winning the freeroll only gets you about $15 and usually takes 5 or 6 hours to do. Cashing takes at least 3 hours and will only get you $1 if you bust out shortly after the bubble. McDonald's pays waaaayyyy better than the freerolls.

[jmbreslin 0]

The problem is the blind schedule. The blinds increase 10 fold the 2nd hour. At the start of the 2nd hour, the blinds are 100/200. At the end of the hour, they're 1k/2k. So, let's say you push early, get 6k in chips that you grind up to 8k at the end of the first hour. You now have 40BBs to play with. You continue to grind the next hour and wind up with 10k (the 2nd hour swings pretty badly due to fold equity being zero due to the short stacks always being all-in). How are you rewarded for your steady grind? You did nothing wrong, played great, and went from 40BB down to 5BB. The next time the blinds go up, you're only option is preflop shoves.

Here's a better idea. Shove early and if you double, shove again. Build up a nice stack and then cruise into the money, or bust out quickly and save yourself several hours. As others have said, playing solid poker for 2 hours and then spinning the roulette wheel for your stack is ridiculous. You're better off just shoving a few times at the beginning.

[nosoul 0]

Here's a better idea. Shove early and if you double, shove again. Build up a nice stack and then cruise into the money, or bust out quickly and save yourself several hours. As others have said, playing solid poker for 2 hours and then spinning the roulette wheel for your stack is ridiculous. You're better off just shoving a few times at the beginning.

Yes, which is why people saying to play solid poker the entire time is ridiculous (and why primarily playing freerolls is ridiculous). The blinds eventually force you to spin the wheel. If you can get enough callers early on so that you can get enough chips to cruise, then sure, do that. Early on, though, there are very few players with more than 2k chips so you'll need to get at least 6 or 7 callers. A little later on, you can get the same chips out of 2 or 3 players. But, yea, if you can get enough chips from players early then do it.Whether or not that saves time depends on how long, on average, it takes you to get enough chips. I could see how it might make you feel better, though.

[jmbreslin 0]

Yes, which is why people saying to play solid poker the entire time is ridiculous (and why primarily playing freerolls is ridiculous). The blinds eventually force you to spin the wheel.

No they don't. There is a HUGE difference between pushing or calling into coinflip or 60/40 situations because of high blinds and calling off your stack with ATC when you are going to be a big underdog. The former is an inevitable feature of fast tourney structures; the latter is just silly.

[BigMagic 0]

In a freeroll avoid the early maniacs who shove any two early. Once the blinds reach around 75/150 you can begin to play suited connectors and speculative hands from position. Use a HUD if you have one to identify the high V$PIP players and expect those who played like maniacs and built stacks to continue to play bad. Very often they will have the chip lead and finish no where near the money. Don't call and allin postflop with less than two pair against any but the true maniacs. Bide your time and those guys who got all those chips early will spew them like mad trying to bully the table. It takes thousands of hands online but eventually you will begin to recognize bluffs and people who are just trying to take control of the flop. For instance, it is quite common for the SB to lead out on the flop with Air hoping to take it down, especially on flush draw flops and paired boards. Play cautiously but aggressively sounds like an oxymoron but it is possible. Watch the action and betting patterns in hands your not in, your will learn a lot about when your opposition has the goods and when they don't . Practice putting them on hands and hand ranges and even when your low on chips never give up. If you get down to less than 11 or 12 Big Blinds you have to make a move while you have fold equity. A hand like 6,7 suited has over 38% equity against two random hands while A,4 off has only a 42% equity over two random hands. Don't wait on a rag ace,move in while your stack size can work for you. Hope this helps.