Dealing With Micro Stake Sngs

[Burnside 0]

Okay i'm an inexperienced player who enjoys playing poker as free entertainment. I started playing off the free $5 poker stars gave me a couple of months ago and got up to $30 in a $1.10 tournament before going back down to $15 through turbos. I don't have more than two hours up my sleeve most of the time and so i usually just play 45 man SnGs (non turbo since turbos are fustrating when you consistently lose to suck outs).I have a good understanding of poker odds which puts me ahead of.... basically all the players in these microstake SnGs and can read slightly better than average. I play $1.20 most of the time (with positive gains) however after playing a couple of .25 (and losing so hopelessly it's not funny) i've decided i need help in playing them. So... how the heck do you play when there are 4 or 5 limpers basically every hand for the first few stages and then you have 1/3 of the average stack? I can outplay them 1 on 1 but I just can't get into situations like that. And on the rare ocassions that i do get a 2 or 3 way pot they end up just becoming calling stations and I don't hit. It seems like you have to leave it to luck and wait for an hour for premium cards which never seem to come (which is not my idea of entertainment). And even then you still have a 30% chance of losing the hand to someone catching an A (not to mention it still put you below the average stack when you win an all in).Do we play small ball, really tight or limp in and leave it to luck in micro stake SnGs?

[Shark527 0]

Micro SNG's are teeball. Preflop: Raise premium hands in any position. I will not call behind or ahead of anyone with a premium hand (big pairs and AK). They will call you anyways so charge them to do so. I like limping small pairs and suited connecters, if my stack is deep enough for this. Once your stack gets to around 15 BB's, I would start start looking to get all in.Flop: Strategy for these are simple. Bet strong hand harder because they will call you with a majority of anything. Stack off's with middle pair are not uncommon from what I've seen. Don't play turbo's. Maybe its just a personal opinion because I suck at them. If your trying to build a roll from micro's, I've found nothing better than the Double or Nothing's under the single table tab. $1.15, top five pays, try those out. Good luck.

[jmbreslin 0]

Agree with Shark, except the regular $1.20's are just fine. That's how I got started on Stars. It's a slow grind but the play is terrible.As a general rule, avoid fancy plays. Fancy play syndrome will kill you against these guys. Play tight, solid aggressive poker.

[SlackerInc 0]

As Shark said, when everyone's limping, you should get in there too with any hand that has potential in a multiway pot. Suited connectors, small pairs, suited aces, suited broadway cards. Unsuited AK and AQ goes down in value--even though other people are playing worse aces, when you get so many people in a pot, even if you flop TPTK you're on shaky ground and you can't put anyone on a hand. So try to play those speculative hands cheaply and keep going with a draw only if it's a strong draw (no gutshots) and you can draw cheaply. In other words, keep the pot small when you don't yet have a big hand. Then when you make your monster hand, work on making the pot as big as possible. If you're up against an aggro player and a calling station, let the aggro player do the betting and you call along with the calling station. Only if your opponents in the hand are all passive should you do the betting.If you have a strong hand preflop (AA-TT, AKs), raise as much as you need to to get it down to a single opponent (on average, obviously--you can't predict these things perfectly). Experiment with this until you have the raising amount right. Then if you're up against a calling station, pour it on; if against an aggro player, let them do the betting. If you have one of those top hands and you get reraised preflop, go all in. Occasionally you'll lose but overall you'll make a profit.This last part btw is contrary to the smallball approach I have been getting into, and I wouldn't recommend it when you move up to higher levels. But adjusting to your opposition is key to success in poker anyway.

[BigMagic 0]

As Shark said, when everyone's limping, you should get in there too with any hand that has potential in a multiway pot. Suited connectors, small pairs, suited aces, suited broadway cards. Unsuited AK and AQ goes down in value--even though other people are playing worse aces, when you get so many people in a pot, even if you flop TPTK you're on shaky ground and you can't put anyone on a hand. So try to play those speculative hands cheaply and keep going with a draw only if it's a strong draw (no gutshots) and you can draw cheaply. In other words, keep the pot small when you don't yet have a big hand. Then when you make your monster hand, work on making the pot as big as possible. If you're up against an aggro player and a calling station, let the aggro player do the betting and you call along with the calling station. Only if your opponents in the hand are all passive should you do the betting.If you have a strong hand preflop (AA-TT, AKs), raise as much as you need to to get it down to a single opponent (on average, obviously--you can't predict these things perfectly). Experiment with this until you have the raising amount right. Then if you're up against a calling station, pour it on; if against an aggro player, let them do the betting. If you have one of those top hands and you get reraised preflop, go all in. Occasionally you'll lose but overall you'll make a profit.This last part btw is contrary to the smallball approach I have been getting into, and I wouldn't recommend it when you move up to higher levels. But adjusting to your opposition is key to success in poker anyway.

Don't see anything in this post about POSITION! Suited connectors OOP is a dangerous gamble. You can flop the nutz the board can pair and your out. I would play them in late position only unless the table is passive.

[SlackerInc 0]

Don't see anything in this post about POSITION! Suited connectors OOP is a dangerous gamble. You can flop the nutz the board can pair and your out. I would play them in late position only unless the table is passive.

Yes, that's true--but position is important in all levels of poker. I thought we were addressing ways micro stakes are different.But definitely, position is key to playing drawing hands (drawing cheaply is tough when you may call a small bet from someone acting before you and then it gets raised behind you) unless as you say the table is very passive.

[Burnside 0]

Thanks for the advice. I think the main problem was that i forgot about the great implied odds of small pocket pairs and suited connecters and so when i sat out while waiting for the calling stations to bow out i lost a lot of play. Thanks for that. I think i'll just play $1.20 45 mans where it's not only possible to make it to post-flop 1 on 1 but all the opponents also suck at it.

[SlackerInc 0]

Thanks for the advice. I think the main problem was that i forgot about the great implied odds of small pocket pairs and suited connecters and so when i sat out while waiting for the calling stations to bow out i lost a lot of play. Thanks for that. I think i'll just play $1.20 45 mans where it's not only possible to make it to post-flop 1 on 1 but all the opponents also suck at it.

What about the $3.30 90-player ones, with the slow blind structure? A lot of play, and only 10% vig instead of 20%.Edit: Whoops, I mean $2.20! Even better: same 20 cent vig but on a $2 buyin, and a better blind structure.

[jmbreslin 0]

I think i'll just play $1.20 45 mans where it's not only possible to make it to post-flop 1 on 1 but all the opponents also suck at it.

If your bankroll is sitting at $15 or so, you really shouldn't be focused on MTTs. Even though the play is terrible in the $1.20 45's, they can still be relatively high variance. I'd focus on STTs for now until your roll is big enough to play larger fields.

[outsider13 0]

PLAY TIGHT EARLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Seriously, this is the most important thing. Play very tight and avoid getting chips in where you are likely behind. For instance, you limp 55 from MP and BB raises it 4 or 5x. Let it go. I wouldn't even worry about suited connectors unless you have a fairly decent position and you can see it for the minimum. A lot of times if you flop semi good, you may find yourself calling off a lot of your stack. I tend to play the early rounds with small pairs cheaply, big pairs, or strong aces. Please fold weak aces early. Do not play weak aces in multiway pots.As for the later rounds (50/100+), this is where you can really start stacking the chips. A good portion of micro stakes players have no idea how to push bot. Their shoving range is too tight, but mostly their calling range is wayyyyy too tight. Pick on these people. This is why I prefer turbos because I have way more success in the later rounds than I do earlier seeing as I play so tight.Don't bluff or slow play. Expecting people to fold in micros is a tall order. When you have a hand, bet bet bet. See last point, people don't fold so get the chips in.

[SGFULTON83 0]

PLAY TIGHT EARLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Seriously, this is the most important thing. Play very tight and avoid getting chips in where you are likely behind. For instance, you limp 55 from MP and BB raises it 4 or 5x. Let it go. I wouldn't even worry about suited connectors unless you have a fairly decent position and you can see it for the minimum. A lot of times if you flop semi good, you may find yourself calling off a lot of your stack. I tend to play the early rounds with small pairs cheaply, big pairs, or strong aces. Please fold weak aces early. Do not play weak aces in multiway pots.As for the later rounds (50/100+), this is where you can really start stacking the chips. A good portion of micro stakes players have no idea how to push bot. Their shoving range is too tight, but mostly their calling range is wayyyyy too tight. Pick on these people. This is why I prefer turbos because I have way more success in the later rounds than I do earlier seeing as I play so tight.Don't bluff or slow play. Expecting people to fold in micros is a tall order. When you have a hand, bet bet bet. See last point, people don't fold so get the chips in.

[jmbreslin 0]

As for the later rounds (50/100+), this is where you can really start stacking the chips. A good portion of micro stakes players have no idea how to push bot. Their shoving range is too tight, but mostly their calling range is wayyyyy too tight. Pick on these people.

One of the things that took me far too long to learn was that because of the Stars blind structure doubling from 25/50 to 50/100, you actually need to start upping the aggression at 25/50 to accumulate some chips. The impact of the doubling blinds is more significant than many people realize. In other words, don't wait until 50/100 to start stealing because you'll often find yourself too short to do so (e.g., making positional steals is very tough when you have 1300 chips at blinds of 50/100). You need to take steps during the 25/50 level to make sure you have enough chips to make proper steals at 50/100 and above.

[outsider13 0]

One of the things that took me far too long to learn was that because of the Stars blind structure doubling from 25/50 to 50/100, you actually need to start upping the aggression at 25/50 to accumulate some chips. The impact of the doubling blinds is more significant than many people realize. In other words, don't wait until 50/100 to start stealing because you'll often find yourself too short to do so (e.g., making positional steals is very tough when you have 1300 chips at blinds of 50/100). You need to take steps during the 25/50 level to make sure you have enough chips to make proper steals at 50/100 and above.

I agree, but I also find that nobody in micros respect raises until the 50/100 range so this is why for me I always start at this spot.And realistically, if you have a 10-13bb stack at 50/100, your raises should be arrrrrinnnn anyways. They should be positional shoves. It's an unexploitable play that you get away with wayyyyyy more in micros because people have no idea how to play like that. Again, I'm shoving on the weakest players.My goal is to never reach below 10bb ever. I feel I have enough fold equity to still do damage. Ideally, yes, I would like more so I can resteal but I can still build a stack with 10bb+. I can pretty much coast to 50/10 with greater than 10bb and a super tight image (not like image matters too much in micros), so this style plays quite well for me.

[jmbreslin 0]

And realistically, if you have a 10-13bb stack at 50/100, your raises should be arrrrrinnnn anyways. They should be positional shoves. It's an unexploitable play that you get away with wayyyyyy more in micros because people have no idea how to play like that. Again, I'm shoving on the weakest players.

With 10BB it's an easy shove but open-shoving becomes much more questionable as you get into the 12-14BB range. That's probably the toughest stack to play because you're a bit too deep to open-shove but too shallow to make standard raises and have to play postflop if called. I'd rather try to make some moves earlier and either give me a cushion with 15BB+ or put me in push/fold mode with 10BB. I absolutely hate playing with 12 or 13BB.

[Burnside 0]

PokerStars Game #24342846234: Tournament #136847604, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/01/27 18:55:57 ETTable '136847604 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: LV Bartend82 (205 in chips) is sitting outSeat 3: teute013 (2660 in chips) Seat 5: Ben1080 (3080 in chips) Seat 6: skiruu2 (3110 in chips) Seat 7: Lespar (1620 in chips) Seat 8: Wizz81 (770 in chips) Seat 9: mizmix (1565 in chips) mizmix: posts small blind 25LV Bartend82: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Lespar [Th Tc]teute013: calls 50Ben1080: folds skiruu2: folds Lespar: raises 75 to 125Wizz81: folds mizmix: calls 100LV Bartend82: folds teute013: calls 75*** FLOP *** [2h Jd 3s]mizmix: bets 200teute013: folds Lespar: raises 300 to 500mizmix: calls 300*** TURN *** [2h Jd 3s] [Qh]mizmix: bets 400Lespar: raises 595 to 995 and is all-inmizmix: calls 540 and is all-inUncalled bet (55) returned to Lespar*** RIVER *** [2h Jd 3s Qh] [7h]Was this the right play? Both bets felt like obvious bluffs but i'm wondering whether i should have flat called them.I've moved down to Stts because my bank roll hit $10.

[BeaverStyle 1]

PokerStars Game #24342846234: Tournament #136847604, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2009/01/27 18:55:57 ETTable '136847604 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the buttonSeat 1: LV Bartend82 (205 in chips) is sitting outSeat 3: teute013 (2660 in chips) Seat 5: Ben1080 (3080 in chips) Seat 6: skiruu2 (3110 in chips) Seat 7: Lespar (1620 in chips) Seat 8: Wizz81 (770 in chips) Seat 9: mizmix (1565 in chips) mizmix: posts small blind 25LV Bartend82: posts big blind 50*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Lespar [Th Tc]teute013: calls 50Ben1080: folds skiruu2: folds Lespar: raises 75 to 125Wizz81: folds mizmix: calls 100LV Bartend82: folds teute013: calls 75*** FLOP *** [2h Jd 3s]mizmix: bets 200teute013: folds Lespar: raises 300 to 500mizmix: calls 300*** TURN *** [2h Jd 3s] [Qh]mizmix: bets 400Lespar: raises 595 to 995 and is all-inmizmix: calls 540 and is all-inUncalled bet (55) returned to Lespar*** RIVER *** [2h Jd 3s Qh] [7h]Was this the right play? Both bets felt like obvious bluffs but i'm wondering whether i should have flat called them.I've moved down to Stts because my bank roll hit $10.

Raise more preflop. I'd raise to 200 here. Some may 250-300 because if they're calling 200 then they're calling 300. As played, I probably call flop and fold turn to further aggression, U/I.

[outsider13 0]

Raise more preflop. I'd raise to 200 here. Some may 250-300 because if they're calling 200 then they're calling 300. As played, I probably call flop and fold turn to further aggression, U/I.

That. I'd raise 200 too, maybe fold flop but usually flat and re-evaluate on the turn.

[Burnside 0]

PokerStars Game #24346288140: Tournament #136872726, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/27 20:43:01 ETTable '136872726 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: TransconaGal (2590 in chips) Seat 2: Lespar (1235 in chips) Seat 3: Peekiu (3900 in chips) Seat 4: Atoll2002 (4270 in chips) Seat 5: Bingo217 (1420 in chips) Seat 6: catwheezle (3090 in chips) Seat 7: tinmannando (2705 in chips) Seat 8: dumpfire (1420 in chips) Seat 9: bwiser (3095 in chips) Peekiu: posts small blind 15Atoll2002: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Lespar [Ad Kd]Bingo217: folds catwheezle: folds tinmannando: calls 30dumpfire: folds bwiser: folds TransconaGal: calls 30Lespar: raises 60 to 90Peekiu: folds Atoll2002: folds tinmannando: calls 60TransconaGal: calls 60*** FLOP *** [Ks 6c As]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: checks Lespar: checks *** TURN *** [Ks 6c As] [8h]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: checks Lespar: bets 120tinmannando: calls 120TransconaGal: calls 120*** RIVER *** [Ks 6c As 8h] [Tc]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: bets 675Lespar: raises 350 to 1025 and is all-intinmannando: folds TransconaGal: calls 350I think i stuffed this one up, slow playing killed me >.<

[TrueAce13 18]

PokerStars Game #24346288140: Tournament #136872726, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/27 20:43:01 ETTable '136872726 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the buttonSeat 1: TransconaGal (2590 in chips) Seat 2: Lespar (1235 in chips) Seat 3: Peekiu (3900 in chips) Seat 4: Atoll2002 (4270 in chips) Seat 5: Bingo217 (1420 in chips) Seat 6: catwheezle (3090 in chips) Seat 7: tinmannando (2705 in chips) Seat 8: dumpfire (1420 in chips) Seat 9: bwiser (3095 in chips) Peekiu: posts small blind 15Atoll2002: posts big blind 30*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to Lespar [Ad Kd]Bingo217: folds catwheezle: folds tinmannando: calls 30dumpfire: folds bwiser: folds TransconaGal: calls 30Lespar: raises 60 to 90Peekiu: folds Atoll2002: folds tinmannando: calls 60TransconaGal: calls 60*** FLOP *** [Ks 6c As]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: checks Lespar: checks *** TURN *** [Ks 6c As] [8h]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: checks Lespar: bets 120tinmannando: calls 120TransconaGal: calls 120*** RIVER *** [Ks 6c As 8h] [Tc]tinmannando: checks TransconaGal: bets 675Lespar: raises 350 to 1025 and is all-intinmannando: folds TransconaGal: calls 350I think i stuffed this one up, slow playing killed me >.<

Raise more PF. You have to bet the flop. Get it in ASAP

[Burnside 0]

so should i be playing really aggresively with good cards so that i don't get drawn out? I used to play that style in SNGs but could scarcely build a big enough stack to survive the blinds and would get into push or fold mode too quickly.

[TrueAce13 18]

so should i be playing really aggresively with good cards so that i don't get drawn out? I used to play that style in SNGs but could scarcely build a big enough stack to survive the blinds and would get into push or fold mode too quickly.

In these micro tournys, about 90% of the players do not know how to play poker. With that, the always put money in when they have some type of draw/piece of the board/under pair. I would always try to play these hands fast and not miss any part of value.

[outsider13 0]

so should i be playing really aggresively with good cards so that i don't get drawn out? I used to play that style in SNGs but could scarcely build a big enough stack to survive the blinds and would get into push or fold mode too quickly.

Bet bet bet!!!!!!!! People will call with worse hands VERY often. A weak ace will call, flush draws will call. Hell, if you pot bet that flop, I'd almost guarantee a call. Better to win a small pot than lose a big one, but remeber, people at micro stakes refuse to get outplayed, therefore they play too much. If you have a made hand, value bet always. Never slow play.Always try to think after your preflop play and the flop, could this have hit their range? This flop could have easily.

[jmbreslin 0]

That being said, you have to recognize when you might actually be behind and be willing to give up on good hands. The TT hand on the previous page was a good example.

[Burnside 0]

To justify the TT hand the blinds were about to raise and the flop bet was almost obviously a bluff. I figured the turn bet was just a continuation and with only 900 chips left and the blinds about to go to 100/50 (like a minute away) and the fact that this guy was an overly aggresive player i was willing to bet the remaining chips that he had a low pair or was just stone cold bluffing.Turned out he had to overcards and hit the Q btw.

[jmbreslin 0]

To justify the TT hand the blinds were about to raise and the flop bet was almost obviously a bluff. I figured the turn bet was just a continuation and with only 900 chips left and the blinds about to go to 100/50 (like a minute away) and the fact that this guy was an overly aggresive player i was willing to bet the remaining chips that he had a low pair or was just stone cold bluffing.Turned out he had to overcards and hit the Q btw.

Point is there were ways to play that hand that could have avoided that outcome. You put way too many chips in (all of them) in a very marginal spot.