Universal Health Care...

[85suited 0]

ok, my bad. I can barely keep up with all these new and crazy ways to pass stuff. I was saying that the odds of something passed by reconciliation being overturned are next to none. In any event, while I do not agree with this health care bill, this is hardly abuse. It's not like Democrats have made their views on health care reform a big secret......and people elected them.

People will be un-electing them in 8 short months

[CaneBrain 95]

People will be un-electing them in 8 short months

cause and effect. I am sure (based on 2000-2008) that the Republicans will DAZZLE us with their amazing-ness once elected.American politics is like going to a diner that only serves two things and they both suck.

[hblask 1]

American politics is like going to a diner that only serves two things and they both suck.

Would you like the Salmonella Pork tonight, or will you be having the Ptomaine Turkey?

[85suited 0]

still trying to figure out how students loans are being nationalized in the health care bill

[hblask 1]

still trying to figure out how students loans are being nationalized in the health care bill

Yeah, I don't know how they justify this to themselves except as pure bribes.But I don't know that I'd call it "nationalized", just "un-privatized". The federal government ran the program anyway, they just let private companies do the legwork. This sounds like it just gets rid of the middleman. (I'll admit, details are sketchy so far, so maybe I'm misunderstanding).

[CaneBrain 95]

Yeah, I don't know how they justify this to themselves except as pure bribes.But I don't know that I'd call it "nationalized", just "un-privatized". The federal government ran the program anyway, they just let private companies do the legwork. This sounds like it just gets rid of the middleman. (I'll admit, details are sketchy so far, so maybe I'm misunderstanding).

Yeah, I don't know why it is in the health care bill but with exploding college tuition this is probably for the best.

[SweetDee 0]

Yeah, I don't know why it is in the health care bill but with exploding college tuition this is probably for the best.

How does it lower college tuition exactly?

[CaneBrain 95]

How does it lower college tuition exactly?

it doesn't; it just makes it easier to pay off the loans (in theory). The best way to lower college tuition would be to get states to stop slashing funding to higher education so at least going to a state school would not be so ridiculously expensive.

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

2) I'd be much more interested in the precedent of reconciliation as it relates to passing the health care bill if it didn't seem like a moot point, meaning that if they didn't have access to reconciliation, the House would just pass the Senate bill and we'd still get Obamacare. If anything, reconciliation should be welcomed by Republicans as it makes the bill pretty objectively better (I think Republicans and Democrats will agree that the reconciled senate bill is better than the raw senate bill, so why are the R's fighting those positive changes?)

The proposed reconciled changes don't do anything to address the main problems conservatives have with the bill, they just add additional stuff to it.If you put frosting and sprinkles on a bowl of razor blades, yes, i suppose you made it more appetizing, but it's still a ****ing bowl of razor blades.

[CaneBrain 95]

The proposed reconciled changes don't do anything to address the main problems conservatives have with the bill, they just add additional stuff to it.If you put frosting and sprinkles on a bowl of razor blades, yes, i suppose you made it more appetizing, but it's still a ****ing bowl of razor blades.

So, the Democrats health care plan is Made in China?

[dapokerbum 0]

So, the Democrats health care plan is Made in China?

Well since they are number 2 on our list of lenders ... I would say yes.

[CaneBrain 95]

Well since they are number 2 on our list of lenders ... I would say yes.

Wow you spotted the double entendre. Well done.

[dapokerbum 0]

Wow you spotted the double entendre. Well done.

Ah so you were saying that in a subtle way and now I ruined it by exposing it ...

GODDAMMIT

[hblask 1]

it doesn't; it just makes it easier to pay off the loans (in theory). The best way to lower college tuition would be to get states to stop slashing funding to higher education so at least going to a state school would not be so ridiculously expensive.

There is a strong argument that the subsidies are what is making education expensive. Here's how:Let's say I think education, based on the the opportunity cost of missing 4 years of work experience and the expected increase in quality of life and income that results from an education, is worth approximately $5000 to me. Let's also say that I'm pretty typical, somewhere in the middle of the bell curve of the general population on that calculation. Some think it's worth more, some less.How does a school get my business? By charging me $5000 for education. But now, I find out that the federal government will give me money, worth a net present value of approximately $3000. Now, education is worth $8000 to me, $5000 of my own, plus $3K of government money. So how does a school get my business? By charging $8K.So now, fewer poor people can afford school. So what is the government's response? MORE FUNDING!!!!!Repeat.The average college grad makes significantly more than a high school grad. Why should a high school grad have to subsidize college grads at all? Shouldn't it be the other way around? (Special exception for BG, no way I'm subsidizing him).

[CaneBrain 95]

There is a strong argument that the subsidies are what is making education expensive. Here's how:Let's say I think education, based on the the opportunity cost of missing 4 years of work experience and the expected increase in quality of life and income that results from an education, is worth approximately $5000 to me. Let's also say that I'm pretty typical, somewhere in the middle of the bell curve of the general population on that calculation. Some think it's worth more, some less.How does a school get my business? By charging me $5000 for education. But now, I find out that the federal government will give me money, worth a net present value of approximately $3000. Now, education is worth $8000 to me, $5000 of my own, plus $3K of government money. So how does a school get my business? By charging $8K.So now, fewer poor people can afford school. So what is the government's response? MORE FUNDING!!!!!Repeat.The average college grad makes significantly more than a high school grad. Why should a high school grad have to subsidize college grads at all? Shouldn't it be the other way around? (Special exception for BG, no way I'm subsidizing him).

I think it is a mistake to think that college tuition costs are in any way tied into what the average applicant thinks is the opportunity cost of missing 4 years of work experience. Also, I dont really understand your example. The Federal government does not give you 3k if you can already afford school. They give you 3k if you need 8k and you have 5k. If a school is factoring into tuition that people can get loans (therefore they can raise prices) they will get undercut by another school (and a number of schools are now rushing to portray themselves as lower cost college options). Unless you think every college in America has colluded to raise prices based on the Federal Government's student loan policies.....and that seems pretty far fetched.The high school grad is not subsidizing just college grads. He is subsidizing his own children's opportunity to go to college someday as well. I don't use trains. Why do my taxes go to help tri-rail or amtrak? Because we have decided as a society we need trains just as we have decided as a society that college is important. When the high school grad loses his job at the GM factory, why should I subsidize his welfare? In the end, I think a lot of this stuff evens out.

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

Most 4 year universities aren't competing with each other on price, they're charging the highest price they can based on the demand for their school.

[hblask 1]

I think it is a mistake to think that college tuition costs are in any way tied into what the average applicant thinks is the opportunity cost of missing 4 years of work experience.

Of course they are. If, when you got out of college, you were $20K in debt and got the same job as your high school friends except 4 years later, nobody would go. People have some internal calculation of what college is worth. It may not be explicit, but it is there. A large part of it has to do with the *type* of job you can get, not just the pay.

Also, I dont really understand your example. The Federal government does not give you 3k if you can already afford school. They give you 3k if you need 8k and you have 5k. If a school is factoring into tuition that people can get loans (therefore they can raise prices) they will get undercut by another school (and a number of schools are now rushing to portray themselves as lower cost college options). Unless you think every college in America has colluded to raise prices based on the Federal Government's student loan policies.....and that seems pretty far fetched.

Same supply + increased demand = price increases. Why is that a question? Whether it's allowing a few more applicants in who couldn't afford it, or subsidizing those who can afford it to go to higher priced colleges, by distorting the demand curve, federal subsidies cause college prices to go up.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

I think it is a mistake to think that college tuition costs are in any way tied into what the average applicant thinks is the opportunity cost of missing 4 years of work experience. Also, I dont really understand your example. The Federal government does not give you 3k if you can already afford school. They give you 3k if you need 8k and you have 5k. If a school is factoring into tuition that people can get loans (therefore they can raise prices) they will get undercut by another school (and a number of schools are now rushing to portray themselves as lower cost college options). Unless you think every college in America has colluded to raise prices based on the Federal Government's student loan policies.....and that seems pretty far fetched.The high school grad is not subsidizing just college grads. He is subsidizing his own children's opportunity to go to college someday as well. I don't use trains. Why do my taxes go to help tri-rail or amtrak? Because we have decided as a society we need trains just as we have decided as a society that college is important. When the high school grad loses his job at the GM factory, why should I subsidize his welfare? In the end, I think a lot of this stuff evens out.

I don't disagree that federal subsidies do increase the price, but I don't think it's to the extent that you're implying. Subsidies of course go in proportion to need, so you're essentially increasing the affordability to the worse off at the price of the better off through higher tuitions (like any other progressive policy). So, is the goal to decrease the total amount of money spent on universities, is the goal to decrease the average amount of money spent per person attending universities, or is the goal to maximize the number of people who go to college, or is to minimize the average fraction of a family's income that they spend on college? These are all different things and could be addressed differently.Universities work differently than almost every other commodity (if you can call it that). While people certainly do consider future earnings when considering whether or not to go to college, it's certainly not done in any explicit way. More and more, college is becoming the expected path for all high school graduates, whether it's best for them or not. Moreover, the value of college isn't limited to future wages. Finally, even if the total cost increases, one has to consider the financial benefits of a better educated populace. More people attending college means more money earned by citizens of the United States.

Most 4 year universities aren't competing with each other on price, they're charging the highest price they can based on the demand for their school.

This isn't true. Harvard could easily charge $100K a year and get full attendance. This is another way that universities are unique. Many earn the majority of their money from donations, and Harvard talked about making undergraduate education free (before the economic crisis really hurt their financial situation).

[85suited 0]

Full tenured professors make an average $76,200, according to the American Association of University Professors.The tenure system and the lack of mandatory retirement can make it tough to oust high-earning but less productive employees.One of the many reasons costs keep going up...

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Full tenured professors make an average $76,200, according to the American Association of University Professors.The tenure system and the lack of mandatory retirement can make it tough to oust high-earning but less productive employees.One of the many reasons costs keep going up...

IF this is a reason, it's an extremely small one. Most likely, it is the tenure system that is necessary to draw and keep high talent professors who could make more money elsewhere.

[El Guapo 8]

IF this is a reason, it's an extremely small one. Most likely, it is the tenure system that is necessary to draw and keep high talent professors who could make more money elsewhere.

Doing what per se?

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Doing what per se?

Well, if they're professors of Math, Computer Science, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, etc, they could get jobs in industry, finance, etc.If they're in history, philosophy, english, etc, they could be lots of things, especially Lawyers

[Naked_Cowboy 0]

No offense, but I think you're greatly overestimating the value of those in academia to those in the private sector.

[vbnautilus 48]

Full tenured professors make an average $76,200, according to the American Association of University Professors.The tenure system and the lack of mandatory retirement can make it tough to oust high-earning but less productive employees.One of the many reasons costs keep going up...

But the proportion of tenured faculty has been going down. Non-tenure track faculty positions are becoming more and more popular, as people recognize various ways in which the tenure system is out of date. At this point 68% of faculty are non-tenure track and this number is rising.I'm also going to use this space to point out that people really get carried away with assigning every little thing an economic value. There are other kinds of value, and I think its very sad to reduce all of life to economics.

[85suited 0]

it may be sad, but every company,every government,every university,every family, every everything needs to work on a budget. The cost of everything must be justified.