The Official Obama Scorecard Thread

[El Guapo 8]

Fact 1: This intelligence disaster caused the United States to embark on the most disastrous military engagement in our history. Almost 8 years in Iraq and counting and we still have accomplished little other than to depose Saddam and replace him with lawlessness and guarantee that Iran has the most influence over that area going forward (since we cant stay forever).Fact 2: Despite the above massive failures, Cheney still insists he did a great job with our foreign policy and national defense and takes every opportunity he can to put his penguin smirk on TV and bash the sitting president.

Fact 1: What? Did you forget about Vietnam? Or how about Korea?Fact 2: I think Cheney did a better job than most do with Foreign policy, we have seen just in the last few months what trying to be nice does. It doesn't work.6 years ago, people were scared of us, I am not sure that is the case anymore. I liked it better when they were scared.

[CaneBrain 95]

Fact 1: What? Did you forget about Vietnam? Or how about Korea?Fact 2: I think Cheney did a better job than most do with Foreign policy, we have seen just in the last few months what trying to be nice does. It doesn't work.6 years ago, people were scared of us, I am not sure that is the case anymore. I liked it better when they were scared.

Ok Vietnam. Korea was not as big a disaster. And the assertion that "hey, now Vietnam was worse than this" is not much of an endorsement.What has happened in the last few months that was so terrible as a result of niceness? Things seem to be progressing as normal on the foreign policy front.The key is to be nice to right people and scare the right people. The Cheney policy was to try and put the fear of god into everybody. Since the key to stopping small, nebulous bands of terrorists is information sharing and cooperation that is a stupid approach. Our military is stretched thin and we still are capable of sending another 32,000 person wave into some of the most hostile territory on the planet. Anyone who is not scared of us is deluding themselves. But, kudos, for continuing the conservative belief that appearing as tough as possible is the key to foreign policy. You guys are so obsessed with image and what the enemy thinks of us on this issue. The important thing is that our military is, in reality, strong (which it is). And that our intelligence services are on the ball (which they seem to be). And that our allies are on our side (which they are but not as much as we need them to be).Trying to scare terrorists is a waste of time. These people will blow themselves up to prove a point. All the saber-rattling does is make our allies roll their eyes and gives the ayatollahs something to quote when they want to inflame hatred. I thought it was masterful how Obama stayed above the fray during the Iran elections. The hardliners there were just dying for Obama to say some things so they could accuse the USA of interference and spreading dissent and poisoning Muslim culture. It is how they keep power. Obama wisely said little....so when they made those charges it looked ridiculous. You cannot scare people into democracy. You have to let hateful people hang themselves. All the young people in Iran look around and see their third world status and they are pissed. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing. Because if Cheney or Bush had been in charge, the US would have said a lot of things during those elections and it would have hurt. Now, the protests there are spinning out of control. Which is great. Getting Iran on board with us is the key to figuring out all the problems in the middle east.

[Balloon guy 158]

We have covered this at length in many other threads but I have no problem with you thinking I am ignorant to deride Dick Cheney at every opportunity.Fact: The worst terrorist attack since Pearl Harbor happened while Cheney was VP.

I will give you this. Your implication that two are related I will not give you, but it did happen during the time frame you present

Fact: The worst intelligence disaster in United States history happened while Cheney was VP.

I thought Cheney was in State when the CIA missed the collapse of the Soviet Union?

Fact: This intelligence disaster caused the United States to embark on the most disastrous military engagement in our history. Almost 8 years in Iraq and counting and we still have accomplished little other than to depose Saddam and replace him with lawlessness and guarantee that Iran has the most influence over that area going forward (since we cant stay forever).

A declarative statement based much more on opinion than any fact. Iraq could have been the turning point that saves countless millions from a 'could have been' scenario that I can present if facts aren't required.

Fact: Cheney was personally responsible for the enhanced interrogation techniques that turned out to be a public relations disaster for the US and its military.

Really, Cheney invented waterboarding? Or do you mean he was the lightning rod that the democrats used to politize the safety of this country for political gain? If that's what you meant than I agree. All 5 times they used it.

Fact: Cheney left Rumsfeld in charge for far too long and realized far too late that putting someone qualified (Petraeus) in charge instead of his good buddy might be a good idea.

Again, you are making an accusation without proving first that Cheney was successful in coopting the presidency. I know it's a 'fact' for the far left extremist..but for the rest of us, we require you to present a fact or two occasionally while you declare a full take over of the presidency. Oh and Rumsfeld was a doofus

Fact: Despite the above massive failures, Cheney still insists he did a great job with our foreign policy and national defense and takes every opportunity he can to put his penguin smirk on TV and bash the sitting president.

Unlike the last president and vp...well the second to the last set anyway.

Therefore, Cheney usually resides on delusion lane a stones' throw from the palace of grandeur.

Actually he used to live next door to my brother in law while he was the VP. It's in the Naval Observatory. My daughter and son in law ate Thanksgiving dinner there while Cheney still lived there.

[brvheart 1,757]

Korea was not as big a disaster.

My uncle died in the Korean War. He was 22.

[CaneBrain 95]

I will give you this. Your implication that two are related I will not give you, but it did happen during the time frame you presentI thought Cheney was in State when the CIA missed the collapse of the Soviet Union?A declarative statement based much more on opinion than any fact. Iraq could have been the turning point that saves countless millions from a 'could have been' scenario that I can present if facts aren't required.Really, Cheney invented waterboarding? Or do you mean he was the lightning rod that the democrats used to politize the safety of this country for political gain? If that's what you meant than I agree. All 5 times they used it.Again, you are making an accusation without proving first that Cheney was successful in coopting the presidency. I know it's a 'fact' for the far left extremist..but for the rest of us, we require you to present a fact or two occasionally while you declare a full take over of the presidency. Oh and Rumsfeld was a doofusUnlike the last president and vp...well the second to the last set anyway.Actually he used to live next door to my brother in law while he was the VP. It's in the Naval Observatory. My daughter and son in law ate Thanksgiving dinner there while Cheney still lived there.

I wish I knew how to break up posts like that.The waterboarding....no Cheney did not invent it but it is an open fact now that it's use was at this direction. He told John Yoo what legal opinions to write. He ran those meetings. This is well known now.It's not that Cheney co-opted the presidency. It is that he is claiming he did a good job. So I am examining the decisions made while he was on the job. And if you do not think Cheney was highly involved in everything Rumsfeld related, that is just silly.I really don't know what scenario you could create that Iraq starts reaping a bunch of unseen benefits (for us or the Iraqi people) but I like a good fiction yarn as much as anyone so don't be shy.It's cool that you know that about where Cheney lived. I think that location was blurred out on Google Maps while he resided there so it was hard for the rest of us to know.

[CaneBrain 95]

My uncle died in the Korean War. He was 22.

I'm sorry. I have one friend and one acquaintence who died in Iraq at the ages of 20 and 23.I do not think comparing wars by personal loss will work though. The good ones and the bad ones always come at great cost.

[brvheart 1,757]

I do not think comparing wars by personal loss will work though.

I wasn't. But the Korean war affected my life more than any of the others, and I was just mentioning that.

[hblask 1]

I wish I knew how to break up posts like that.

Type the following:(/quote) (quote) except with square brackets [] between the lines you want to break apart and type your response between them. The first one ends the previous block, the next one starts the new block, and they have to match in start-end pairs or you get an error.

[CaneBrain 95]

Type the following:(/quote) (quote) except with square brackets [] between the lines you want to break apart and type your response between them. The first one ends the previous block, the next one starts the new block, and they have to match in start-end pairs or you get an error.

thank you.

[Balloon guy 158]

I wish I knew how to break up posts like that.The waterboarding....no Cheney did not invent it but it is an open fact now that it's use was at this direction. He told John Yoo what legal opinions to write. He ran those meetings. This is well known now.It's not that Cheney co-opted the presidency. It is that he is claiming he did a good job. So I am examining the decisions made while he was on the job. And if you do not think Cheney was highly involved in everything Rumsfeld related, that is just silly.I really don't know what scenario you could create that Iraq starts reaping a bunch of unseen benefits (for us or the Iraqi people) but I like a good fiction yarn as much as anyone so don't be shy.

I'm sorry, I can't follow you unless you break up the post and place the lies distortions opinions you attribute directly to the quotes I made.

It's cool that you know that about where Cheney lived. I think that location was blurred out on Google Maps while he resided there so it was hard for the rest of us to know.

Actually everyone who knows anything knows the VP lives at the Naval Observatory along with 3 ranking Navy people. I was bragging that I am related to one of them. Which one I will refrain from since it could only hurt him

[Balloon guy 158]

thank you.

Or cut and paste and then highlight and quote.The problem with Henry's way is it's easy to get messed up on the correct end quotes for the beginning quotes.Or you can be a real man and memorize the post, retype it verbatim, with spelling errors I might add, and then use the quote feature.But baby steps...

[akoff 0]

We have covered this at length in many other threads but I have no problem with you thinking I am ignorant to deride Dick Cheney at every opportunity.Fact: The worst terrorist attack since Pearl Harbor happened while Cheney was VP.After the organization that planned and executed the attack was ignored for 8 years by Slick WillieFact: The worst intelligence disaster in United States history happened while Cheney was VP.The intelligence group that was ignored and underfunded by Slick WillieFact: This intelligence disaster caused the United States to embark on the most disastrous military engagement in our history. Almost 8 years in Iraq and counting and we still have accomplished little other than to depose Saddam and replace him with lawlessness and guarantee that Iran has the most influence over that area going forward (since we cant stay forever).Thanks again Bill...8 years of neglect will do thatFact: Cheney was personally responsible for the enhanced interrogation techniques that turned out to be a public relations disaster for the US and its military. and they have been effective for us...i don't give a damn about perceived public relations or a bunch of terrorists. Fact: Cheney left Rumsfeld in charge for far too long and realized far too late that putting someone qualified (Petraeus) in charge instead of his good buddy might be a good idea.Fact: Despite the above massive failures, Cheney still insists he did a great job with our foreign policy and national defense and takes every opportunity he can to put his penguin smirk on TV and bash the sitting president.it isn't hard to bash our sitting president. the next thing he does well may be his first. Oh yea he did win a peace prize for being elected, that was impresiveTherefore, Cheney usually resides on delusion lane a stones' throw from the palace of grandeur.LOL that is funny

Listen dick wasn't perfect and i don't really care for him a whole lot but you are off base with him. You also forgot to mention he is a bad guy to hunting with!!

[Balloon guy 158]

Type the following:(/quote) (quote) except with square brackets [] between the lines you want to break apart and type your response between them. The first one ends the previous block, the next one starts the new block, and they have to match in start-end pairs or you get an error.

Let's all agree not to tell him about the orange boxes. No one told me for 3 years...it's only fair

[vbnautilus 48]

Fact 2: I think Cheney did a better job than most do with Foreign policy, we have seen just in the last few months what trying to be nice does. It doesn't work.6 years ago, people were scared of us, I am not sure that is the case anymore. I liked it better when they were scared.

How has just a few months shown that? How could it? I don't want people to be scared of us.

[Balloon guy 158]

Anyone else catch this ( I didn't Rush did )During the campaign Hillary told Obama that she would drop out if Obama agreed to pay off her campaign debts. She owed about ~$6 million. ( Remember she is worth over $100 million ) Obama and Hillary met behind closed doors and came out with Hillary dropping out of the race.Now fast forward to this story

Mark Penn's two firms got $6 million from stimulus for PR campaignBy Alexander Bolton - 12/09/09 12:00 AM ETNearly $6 million in stimulus money was paid to two firms run by Mark Penn,...

I left out the next 5 words, but I'll get back to them.

Federal records show that $5.97 million from the $787 billion stimulus helped preserve three jobs at Burson-Marsteller, the global public-relations and communications firm headed by Penn.

yep, the stimulus package money carved off a cool $6 million to Penn to save 3 jobs.Now the 5 words I left off the first quote?Hillary Clinton’s pollster in 2008.Lucky for us we know that Obama would never waste federal money to pay the campaign debts of a woman that was thoroughly defeated, when he had a $600,000,000.00 war chest of his own.

[Balloon guy 158]

And my favorite part of the story was this:

“In the end, even if there are a few unwise projects, it is only a handful out of the over 50,000 projects that have been approved to date,” said Liz Oxhorn, a White House spokeswoman. “The real question here is whether Recovery Act critics will at long last acknowledge that well over 99 percent of the projects are sound, effective and working as promised.”

Come on..so we gave a guy six million, big deal, it's not like it's really a lot of money for us.

[Balloon guy 158]

Ow, and 2 seconds with Google turned up this story form my favorite The Huffington Post regarding the deal to pay off Hillary's debt, dated in May of 08:

For many Obama backers, Penn, the former chief strategist for Clinton and head of one of the biggest PR-lobbying conglomerates in the nation's capital, is the quintessential Washington insider, capitalizing on political connections to become a multi-millionaire.The immediate problem with Penn -- whose conflicts of interest plagued the Clinton campaign and ultimately led to his being publicly, if not privately, repudiated -- is that if Obama helps Clinton pay off her debts, a big chunk of those debts -- an estimated $10 million or more -- is owed to Penn.

[hblask 1]

Anyone else catch this ( I didn't Rush did )During the campaign Hillary told Obama that she would drop out if Obama agreed to pay off her campaign debts. She owed about ~$6 million. ( Remember she is worth over $100 million ) Obama and Hillary met behind closed doors and came out with Hillary dropping out of the race.Now fast forward to this storyI left out the next 5 words, but I'll get back to them.yep, the stimulus package money carved off a cool $6 million to Penn to save 3 jobs.Now the 5 words I left off the first quote?Hillary Clinton’s pollster in 2008.Lucky for us we know that Obama would never waste federal money to pay the campaign debts of a woman that was thoroughly defeated, when he had a $600,000,000.00 war chest of his own.

OK, I know it's only 6 million, but this pisses me off more than most of the waste in Washington, because this one is so flagrant and obvious. You know, if you let your dog crap in my yard, I'll be annoyed, but if you then bring me outside and rub my face in it, I'll be really, really annoyed. I think this actually crosses the line into criminal behavior, and I'd like to see all involved serve some jail time for it.

[dabetka 0]

excellent point. for sure, we'd be much better off financially if the conservatives were in charge.oh wait, 77% increase in the national debt from 2000 to 2008, you say? oops.since this is the obama topic, let's get back to it: I think the debt obama's issuing today will actually start to show positive real returns for the US in a year or two.

Looks like we're sure off to a good start Strategy......Er not?http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091209/ap_on_...ut_extension_15WASHINGTON – The Treasury Department is acknowledging for the first time that it lost $61 billion on two key programs designed to stabilize the economy after the largest financial crisis in decades.The government is losing more than $30 billion on lifelines extended to insurance giant American International Group Inc., according to Treasury data released Wednesday in an audit by the Government Accountability Office. It also is losing more than $30 billion on rescues of struggling automakers Chrysler and General Motors.Treasury says the losses are offset in part by profits earned from bank bailouts. It says the bank bailouts will net taxpayers $19.5 billion.Over all, the bailouts are projected to cost taxpayers $41.5 billion.THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration has extended the $700 billion financial bailout program until October, setting up a struggle between Democrats who favor using some of the leftover money to help generate jobs and Republicans who say it should be used to shrink soaring budget deficits.The administration insists the bailout fund is still needed to prevent further turmoil in the banking system. In announcing the decision Wednesday, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said extending the program also will help homeowners struggling to avoid losing homes to foreclosures and small businesses having trouble getting loans.The administration is now projecting the losses to the government from the bailout program will be around $141 billion — $200 billion less than it estimated two months ago.President Barack Obama said the freed-up money can help reduce the record-high federal budget deficit and "invest in job creation on Main Street rather than Wall Street."Obama spoke to reporters after a meeting with congressional leaders aimed at providing momentum for a new jobs program he outlined Tuesday. That effort seeks to combat the nation's 10 percent unemployment rate by providing tax breaks to encourage companies to hire new workers, increase bank lending to small businesses and provide a fresh round of infrastructure spending.The administration has not provided details on the size of the new spending package. But Democratic leaders suggested it could cost between $75 billion and $150 billion.Democrats initially hoped to pass Obama's proposals this month. But the proposals likely will slip until early January, given opposition from Republicans and the to-do list already facing Congress as it struggles to finish business before Christmas.Both the administration and Democratic leaders have indicated they want to divert some of the unspent bailout funds to a jobs program. Their goal is to refashion a hugely unpopular program viewed by voters as a taxpayer-funded bailout for big Wall Street firms that then reaped millions of dollars in lavish bonuses.Republicans vowed to keep trying to close down the rescue program by the end of this month. They said any leftover funds should be devoted exclusively to curbing the country's soaring budget deficits."The Obama administration just can't seem to let go of the $700 billion in 'walking around money' taxpayers were forced to put on the line to bailout Wall Street last year," said Rep. Jeb Hensarling, R-Texas.Republicans also criticized Treasury for using the Troubled Asset Relief Program as a slush fund to support programs that Congress never intended — including bailouts of automakers and failing insurance giant American International Group Inc."American taxpayers have had enough of open-ended bailouts that have left them stuck with trillions of dollars in new debt," House Republican Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said Wednesday. "TARP should be shut down by the end of the year. It's time to get the government out of the bailout business."Geithner contended that the bailout program helped avert a worse financial outcome. Financial conditions have improved, and the economy has finally pulled out of a deep tailspin and is starting to grow again. Repayments from banks who received TARP support will soon total $116 billion, including $45 billion from Bank of America Corp. The government expects up to $175 billion in repayments from rescued companies by the end of next year, he said. The TARP was passed during the height of the financial crisis in October 2008 and was scheduled to expire at the end of this year. In his notification to Congress, Geithner said it will be extended until Oct. 3, 2010, "to respond to an immediate and substantial threat to the economy stemming from financial instability." Geithner said the administration planned only limited use of the TARP over the next year. He expects $550 billion of the $700 billion will be spent. There was $364 billion committed in the 2009 budget year that ended on Sept. 30. Of that, Geithner estimated the government would not recover $42 billion. The new commitments would be limited to three areas: support to avert mortgage foreclosures, boosting capital for small and community banks that are principal lenders to small businesses, and a potential increase to a joint program with the Federal Reserve designed to bolster consumer and small business lending. Geithner said of the $141 billion in expected losses, about $25 billion should be incurred in the current budget year. "The vast majority of these potential costs" would come from efforts to prevent mortgage foreclosures. In a report Wednesday, a TARP watchdog panel said the fund helped ease last fall's financial panic but was less successful in meeting other goals Congress set. These include reducing foreclosures and unfreezing credit for consumers and businesses. "Congress set goals for the TARP that went well beyond short-term financial stability, and by that measure problems remain," said panel chair Elizabeth Warren. The report found the program's effects have been uneven. A $75 billion initiative to stem the wave of foreclosures has "failed," and Treasury's actions had granted big banks an "implicit guarantee" that the government would bail them out, Warren said. The government still is guaranteeing billions of dollars in bank assets, which along with debt guarantees from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., amount to ongoing subsidies that may mask the condition of the financial markets, the report said. Treasury responded that the TARP has "by every measure ... succeeded in achieving its primary goal of economic stabilization." But the TARP panel, established by Congress to provide independent oversight, noted that bank failures continue and access to credit remains tight. It said the program's progress toward goals necessary for financial stability and economic growth "is less clear."

[strategy 4]

.

[dabetka 0]

I'm still not sure you understood what I was saying.

You're saying that in some way unknown to anyone but yourself, you think the USA is going to come out ahead with all of this bad debt. You are completely wrong. Is that clear enough?

[strategy 4]

.

[brvheart 1,757]

You would be destroyed in the following poll:Who is more intelligent?[ ] dabetka[ ] chrozzo

To be fair though, so would Chrozzo.

[brvheart 1,757]

I enjoy a little Republican in my hard core Democrats.+1

[CaneBrain 95]

I enjoy a little Republican in my hard core Democrats.+1

Yep, World War II was just FDR's Republican side.