The Official Obama Scorecard Thread

[hblask 1]

wait, what? you gotta at least source something like this.....

From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/t...e_n_678354.htmlInvestigators with NASA and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have reviewed event data recorders, or vehicle black boxes, on 58 vehicles in which sudden acceleration was reported. In 35 of the 58 cases reviewed, the black boxes showed no brakes were applied.Story continues belowIn about half of those 35 cases, the accelerator pedal was depressed right before the crash, suggesting drivers of the speeding cars were stepping on the accelerator rather than hitting the brakes.Fourteen cases showed partial braking. One case showed pedal entrapment and another showed that both the brake and the pedal were depressed. Other cases were inconclusive.In other words: bad drivers, with one case of the pedal getting stuck under the floor mat (really really bad driving).

[CaneBrain 95]

From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/11/t...e_n_678354.htmlInvestigators with NASA and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have reviewed event data recorders, or vehicle black boxes, on 58 vehicles in which sudden acceleration was reported. In 35 of the 58 cases reviewed, the black boxes showed no brakes were applied.Story continues belowIn about half of those 35 cases, the accelerator pedal was depressed right before the crash, suggesting drivers of the speeding cars were stepping on the accelerator rather than hitting the brakes.Fourteen cases showed partial braking. One case showed pedal entrapment and another showed that both the brake and the pedal were depressed. Other cases were inconclusive.In other words: bad drivers, with one case of the pedal getting stuck under the floor mat (really really bad driving).

and the other 23 cases? one study does not a conclusion make. I hope it really was driver error though. My wife drives a toyota....

[Jeepster80125 0]

If you think I have said that Obama's health care reform was a good thing, then you have not read a word I wrote about it. Sorry.I will engage you on this; I think Obama care was a political disaster that changed little in terms of access and did little to address cost. However, I don't think it made the situation appreciably worse either. It basically does nothing while submarining him politically.

This is what I was addressing. I understand that we agree the healthcare bill sucks, but I don't think you see or realize how much of a negative impact it will have as-is. Also, if the legislation stays as it is, it will be the end of private insurance companies and the beginning of the socialization of our healthcare system. I don't think you want to wait 18 months for an MRI for your back, do you? This legislation will ensure exactly that. This legislation, when looked back at in 25 years, will have a huge effect on obama's legacy. People like LLY will be seeing this as the first step in moving our country to the left. This might sound like alarmism or something (if I'm even using that word correctly), but I think I'm right. But, there are two elections between now and then, so we'll see.LLY, I don't have time to address your post but I'll get to it, thanks for replying.

[CaneBrain 95]

This is what I was addressing. I understand that we agree the healthcare bill sucks, but I don't think you see or realize how much of a negative impact it will have as-is. Also, if the legislation stays as it is, it will be the end of private insurance companies and the beginning of the socialization of our healthcare system. I don't think you want to wait 18 months for an MRI for your back, do you? This legislation will ensure exactly that. This legislation, when looked back at in 25 years, will have a huge effect on obama's legacy. People like LLY will be seeing this as the first step in moving our country to the left. This might sound like alarmism or something (if I'm even using that word correctly), but I think I'm right. But, there are two elections between now and then, so we'll see.LLY, I don't have time to address your post but I'll get to it, thanks for replying.

This sounds pretty alarmist, yes. Also, you know full well that I don't care if every private insurance company goes under. Just as Michael Moore vastly exaggerated the problems of our health system....I believe the downsides of socialized medicine are exaggerated quite nicely by conservatives. I seriously doubt I would wait 18 months for an MRI anywhere......and this is America, even if we have socialized medicine private clinics will pop up offering a way to pay a little more and cut the line.

[hblask 1]

and the other 23 cases? one study does not a conclusion make. I hope it really was driver error though. My wife drives a toyota....

The point was, after the goverment, which now owns one of Toyota's main competitors, made such a huge deal out of how terrible Toyota is, their own initial study shows the only definite problem so far is a floor mat. So anyone who thinks the govt owning GM is a really, really good thing is just being naive or is a blind supporter of all things Obama.

[hblask 1]

I believe the downsides of socialized medicine are exaggerated quite nicely by conservatives.

How about reality's opinion on socialized medicine:https://docs.google.com/View?id=ddg2bft8_0gmwvj375

[CaneBrain 95]

The point was, after the goverment, which now owns one of Toyota's main competitors, made such a huge deal out of how terrible Toyota is, their own initial study shows the only definite problem so far is a floor mat. So anyone who thinks the govt owning GM is a really, really good thing is just being naive or is a blind supporter of all things Obama.

Or you are seeing conspiracies where they do not exist. You forgot option 3. What about people who don't see it as good or bad?

[CaneBrain 95]

How about reality's opinion on socialized medicine:https://docs.google.com/View?id=ddg2bft8_0gmwvj375

I have no more faith in a random sampling of anecdotes than I do in a study that ranks the US as the 41st best health care system. Do you know how many American hospitals have failed hygeine tests? How many screw ups American hospitals have? How many people die every year in America from infections? How a woman died in an American ER because people just ignored her? We could play this game all day.

[Pot Odds RAC 23]

I have no more faith in a random sampling of anecdotes than I do in a study that ranks the US as the 41st best health care system. Do you know how many American hospitals have failed hygeine tests? How many screw ups American hospitals have? How many people die every year in America from infections? How a woman died in an American ER because people just ignored her? We could play this game all day.

Wait. Are you saying America is better than or worse than 41st? Name 30 you think are better. I actually had the "opportunity" to be in hospitals in several other countries. Failed hygiene tests? Yeah. That means the American Health Care System sucks.

[strategy 4]

Wait. Are you saying America is better than or worse than 41st? Name 30 you think are better. I actually had the "opportunity" to be in hospitals in several other countries. Failed hygiene tests? Yeah. That means the American Health Care System sucks.

I think he was saying better and then followed it up with confusing stuff.

[hblask 1]

I have no more faith in a random sampling of anecdotes than I do in a study that ranks the US as the 41st best health care system. Do you know how many American hospitals have failed hygeine tests? How many screw ups American hospitals have? How many people die every year in America from infections? How a woman died in an American ER because people just ignored her? We could play this game all day.

I specifically broke it into anecdotal evidence and systemic evidence. If you don't like the anecdotal, just ignore it. I made it easy for you for that very reason.You are free to collect as many articles and studies about American hospitals as you wish. Good luck with that. Especially the ones about waiting lists and rationed care. (I won't hold my breath).

[CaneBrain 95]

Wait. Are you saying America is better than or worse than 41st? Name 30 you think are better. I actually had the "opportunity" to be in hospitals in several other countries. Failed hygiene tests? Yeah. That means the American Health Care System sucks.

far, far better. I am just saying if you want to find articles bashing US health care for this or that you can. Michael Moore made a whole move out of it.I think the study that put America 41st (just ahead of Cuba) is BS. just like I think the idea that if we had socialized medicine, American healthcare would turn into a cesspool is BS.

[CaneBrain 95]

I specifically broke it into anecdotal evidence and systemic evidence. If you don't like the anecdotal, just ignore it. I made it easy for you for that very reason.You are free to collect as many articles and studies about American hospitals as you wish. Good luck with that. Especially the ones about waiting lists and rationed care. (I won't hold my breath).

I will just target the ones about denial of access and bankruptcy inducement instead. Each system has their problems.

[Jeepster80125 0]

Making hospitals more sanitary, reducing infections, etc. are just the types of things that we need to do to reform our healthcare system. 80% of malpractice claims are paid out in the US. That speaks for the need for tort reform, another thing not addressed in this legislation.Here is a good article from Consumer Reports.I don't see anything in the healthcare legislation that addresses this problem, or anything related to it. It did create a bunch of new agencies for obama to appoint his buddies to, so that's nice.That's what is so maddening about healthcare reform. It didn't do anything to address our actual healthcare system, which badly needs reform. This just makes government bigger and increases the amount of people on the public teat. It did nothing to address reform.

[CaneBrain 95]

Making hospitals more sanitary, reducing infections, etc. Here is a good article from Consumer Reports.I don't see anything in the healthcare legislation that addresses this problem, or anything related to it. It did create a bunch of new agencies for obama to appoint his buddies to, so that's nice.That's what is so maddening about healthcare reform. It didn't do anything to address our actual healthcare system, which badly needs reform. This just makes government bigger and increases the amount of people on the public teat. It did nothing to address reform.

This was my general point. His bill was a big pile of nothing that crippled him politically. He cashed in all his credits to do very little. I will never understand it.

[hblask 1]

Or you are seeing conspiracies where they do not exist. You forgot option 3.

It wasn't a conspiracy, it was an open, blatant attack on a competitor by the people who make the rules. It would be a conspiracy if they did it behind closed doors and tried to hide it. Where were the investigations into GM and Chrysler, which had actual problems that were worse, rather than imaginary ones? We have proof of those; the Toyota ones have no evidence so far.

What about people who don't see it as good or bad?

Then I would suggest to those people take a look at the history of central planning and government ownership of the means of production.

[hblask 1]

I will just target the ones about denial of access and bankruptcy inducement instead. Each system has their problems.

OK, please find a study showing the percentage of people who recover but are bankrupt vs a study of the percentage of people who die waiting for cardiac care in Canada. Add interviews with the bankrupt survivors and ask them if they'd prefer to be dead in Canada but fiscally solvent.And yes, that is your choice. This isn't a magical fairy land where politicians can make health care rain from the sky by legislative fiat. Reality sucks sometimes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't choose the path of least harm.

[Jeepster80125 0]

This was my general point. His bill was a big pile of nothing that crippled him politically. He cashed in all his credits to do very little. I will never understand it.

As it stands, HealthcareReform2010 will be the death of private insurance companies, with medicare, medicaid and other unsustainable government entitlement programs will be the only thing to replace insurance companies when they stop selling insurance. I know you won't mind this, but my buddy who works at Anthem will be negatively affected. If nothing changes, obama got exactly what he wanted, the creation of a huge entitlement program and a huge increase in government for his buddies.Hopefully you are right and this cripples him. I don't understand it either, the only thing I understand is that I hate politicians and our 2 party system. If we took away the third party, then we might find actual electable people. But dems and repubs would never allow competition, so we'll always be stuck with hard liners.

[FCP Bob 1,312]

OK, please find a study showing the percentage of people who recover but are bankrupt vs a study of the percentage of people who die waiting for cardiac care in Canada. Add interviews with the bankrupt survivors and ask them if they'd prefer to be dead in Canada but fiscally solvent.And yes, that is your choice. This isn't a magical fairy land where politicians can make health care rain from the sky by legislative fiat. Reality sucks sometimes, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't choose the path of least harm.

I've only skimmed it but if you have a few hours to kill Henry this study on wait times in Canada should interest you.The organization who produced the study is government funded but has done many things that make the various governements not look good so I trust their work.http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Wai...Report_06_e.pdf

[El Guapo 8]

The other night I had to take my daughter to the ER because she cut her ear open and needed stitches. It was very annoying. It took the lady at the desk 3 times to find our medical record number. Then after we were asked to sit and wait for what seemed like at least 5 minutes, the triage nurse finally called us up and took my daughters vitals. After this time consuming ordeal, we were put into the children's waiting room where there were only a few books, 1 single play structure and we had to wait until they took back a boy with a broken arm and a girl who was running a high fever. Finally we get into the private hospital room, we have probably been there for a full hour at this time. The doctor, who is completely inconsiderate ignores us for the next 5 minutes. Then after examining my daughter puts some topical gel on her ear and says we have to wait another 15-20 minutes for it to be numb until her could place the stitches. well he took almost 45 minutes to get back to us. It was now past my kids bedtime and they were getting hungry. There was absolutely no food provided for them. Once the stitches were placed we were allowed to leave almost 3 hours later! Even though I have insurance, I had to pay $181.47 for the visit.I for one cannot wait until they fix this broken system we are in.

[CaneBrain 95]

The other night I had to take my daughter to the ER because she cut her ear open and needed stitches. It was very annoying. It took the lady at the desk 3 times to find our medical record number. Then after we were asked to sit and wait for what seemed like at least 5 minutes, the triage nurse finally called us up and took my daughters vitals. After this time consuming ordeal, we were put into the children's waiting room where there were only a few books, 1 single play structure and we had to wait until they took back a boy with a broken arm and a girl who was running a high fever. Finally we get into the private hospital room, we have probably been there for a full hour at this time. The doctor, who is completely inconsiderate ignores us for the next 5 minutes. Then after examining my daughter puts some topical gel on her ear and says we have to wait another 15-20 minutes for it to be numb until her could place the stitches. well he took almost 45 minutes to get back to us. It was now past my kids bedtime and they were getting hungry. There was absolutely no food provided for them. Once the stitches were placed we were allowed to leave almost 3 hours later! Even though I have insurance, I had to pay $181.47 for the visit.I for one cannot wait until they fix this broken system we are in.

Hooray for anecdotes!In 2003, I took my girlfriend, now wife, to the hospital in Philadelphia. She was experiencing arm pain and had some discoloration in her lower right arm. We waited in the ER for 6 hours and were never seen. Her arm started to feel better so we decided to give up. In the middle of the next night, the pain came back worse so we rushed to the hospital. 4 more hours later a doctor took one look at her arm and rushed her to the ICU. She had a blood clot in her shoulder; it could have dislodged and killed her at any time. After a few lame apologies she was treated 3 days later with some fairly serious surgery. She then spent the next three months fighting with insurance companies on the phone over the massive bill her 11 day hospital stay required.I, for one, cannot wait until they fix this broken system we are in.That was fun.

[El Guapo 8]

I didn't use as many commas though.

[CaneBrain 95]

I didn't use as many commas though.

Guess you are just a little more punctuationally responsible than me. Not surprising given my evil profession.

[hblask 1]

I've only skimmed it but if you have a few hours to kill Henry this study on wait times in Canada should interest you.The organization who produced the study is government funded but has done many things that make the various governements not look good so I trust their work.http://secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/products/Wai...Report_06_e.pdf

That is a lot of good information. It looks like they are doing really good things on studying waits, the causes and solutions. I don't think they have it all solved yet, but it's good to see it is moving in the right direction. I also just skimmed it, but will try to read more when I get time (and when it loads properly -- it's not finishing right now for some reason). I'm going to add it to my links on socialized medicine.As for the stories above about emergency care in the US, my experience is similar. This is fairly predictable. What would you expect when the hospital is told that they must take anyone who walks in and will have to wait forever to get paid? The ERs I've been to have been staffed with med students practicing all the things they learned in med school. I believe they have a real doctor reviewing what they are doing, but overall the care sucks. But hey, it's the price we pay for being compassionate to deadbeats. It's probably a reasonable price to pay.

[ShakeZuma 585]

I don't get sick so I think our current health care system is working perfectly.