Obesity

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm not saying to what extent or whatever with that, I'm just getting sick of people like LMD putting words in other people's mouth's and massively exaggerating every body else's point of view. Him and Henry act as if everyone who argues against their so called 'freedoms' are a registered facist who's fighting for a return to 1984 society.

Goddammit, why don't they just bow to my rules?!?! The loss of freedom doesn't happen overnight, it starts small. Then, one day, you look, and you're offing people by the millions based on hair color.

[Sheiky 0]

Goddammit, why don't they just bow to my rules?!?! The loss of freedom doesn't happen overnight, it starts small. Then, one day, you look, and you're offing people by the millions based on hair color.

Again, slippery slope arguments aren't arguments.

[Loismustdie 0]

Again, slippery slope arguments aren't arguments.

Wrong. You just don't like them, because they point out where you failed to think something through. If, during the course of a conversation/debate, you find yourself to many times at these types of impasses, where you have no way to defend your position that isn't easily debunked by pointing out your lack of thought, I argue that the problem lies within you.

[hblask 1]

Oh, and they're not "so-called freedoms", they are actual freedoms that people died to protect.

[Don Giovanni 0]

Except one is also morally wrong, and harms others. No difference, though, I agree completely.

not relevant in the context of what you and i said. as always, you change the subject of the argument in order to try to make a point. plus not wearing a seatbelt can harm others indirectly (financially, in fact, it always does) or if you fly through your windshield into their car and i could make a case that that is morally wrong (especially since there is no solid definition of this) so you basically just suck at this.

[Nimue1995 1]

Do you honestly think that CPS has the time, energy, resources or will to go after parents of fat kids when they can't even take kids away that are burned with cigarettes, have had their spines broken, have had the dog taught to bite their genitalia. Yeah it happened to an 18 month old in England but it still happened. The boy died and NOW they're looking into what went wrong when the family had been visited 3 times in the month prior to his death by the CPS and the boy had been taken to a DOCTOR with a broken spine and the doctor didn't notice. I can quote a lot more cases in this United States that would make your hair stand on end including giving kids back to parents that were arrested for running a meth lab in their home with the children present which happened in my own county. Your slippery slope argument simply doesn't work LMD because we don't do anything about the cases that something SHOULD be done about now. Do you honestly believe these people above should be allowed to continue to procreate? This is one area where I'm all for taking away their freedom to reproduce and I'm not a bit sorry to say so.

[hblask 1]

Do you honestly think that CPS has the time, energy, resources or will to go after parents of fat kids when they can't even take kids away that are burned with cigarettes, have had their spines broken, have had the dog taught to bite their genitalia. Yeah it happened to an 18 month old in England but it still happened. The boy died and NOW they're looking into what went wrong when the family had been visited 3 times in the month prior to his death by the CPS and the boy had been taken to a DOCTOR with a broken spine and the doctor didn't notice.I can quote a lot more cases in this United States that would make your hair stand on end including giving kids back to parents that were arrested for running a meth lab in their home with the children present which happened in my own county. Your slippery slope argument simply doesn't work LMD because we don't do anything about the cases that something SHOULD be done about now. Do you honestly believe these people above should be allowed to continue to procreate? This is one area where I'm all for taking away their freedom to reproduce and I'm not a bit sorry to say so.

You seem to be assuming that the failures of CPS are due to lack of manpower rather than incompetence or the general difficulty of the job. There was just recently a case in the Socialist Republic of New Jersey where they took a kid away from his parents because they didn't like the kid's name. Are you seriously going to tell me that if we start going down the "unhealthy lifestyle is abuse" line of thought that CPS will always make good decisions rather than arbitrary and easy decisions? The "benevolent dictator" theory?

[Loismustdie 0]

not relevant in the context of what you and i said. as always, you change the subject of the argument in order to try to make a point. plus not wearing a seatbelt can harm others indirectly (financially, in fact, it always does) or if you fly through your windshield into their car and i could make a case that that is morally wrong (especially since there is no solid definition of this) so you basically just suck at this.

Dude, you really want to argue that the freedom that I lose by wearing a seatbelt/not wearing a seatbelt is the same as that which I would lose by allowing some arbitrary panel to decide whether or not I let my kid get to fat, and now I am an abuser and could potentially lose them ? Really? Then **** you, you're an idiot of the largest proportion. Look around you, look who's arguing against me. You can tell me who is on each side of an argument and I can tell you who probably is on the side of what makes sense, and you don't even need to tell me the argument, just give me the players.

[Don Giovanni 0]

Dude, you really want to argue that the freedom that I lose by wearing a seatbelt/not wearing a seatbelt is the same as that which I would lose by allowing some arbitrary panel to decide whether or not I let my kid get to fat, and now I am an abuser and could potentially lose them ? Really? Then **** you, you're an idiot of the largest proportion. Look around you, look who's arguing against me. You can tell me who is on each side of an argument and I can tell you who probably is on the side of what makes sense, and you don't even need to tell me the argument, just give me the players.

i dont even know what the **** youre talking about. thats not what i was arguing at all. when the hell did i say anything about a panel? stop taking other peoples words and applying them to me, and stop taking my words, changing them around in your twisted head, and spitting them back out. you have serious reading comprehension problems. do me a favor: go to your local elementary school, enroll for next semester, and tell them you need to start at the beginning.

[Loismustdie 0]

Do you honestly think that CPS has the time, energy, resources or will to go after parents of fat kids when they can't even take kids away that are burned with cigarettes, have had their spines broken, have had the dog taught to bite their genitalia. Yeah it happened to an 18 month old in England but it still happened. The boy died and NOW they're looking into what went wrong when the family had been visited 3 times in the month prior to his death by the CPS and the boy had been taken to a DOCTOR with a broken spine and the doctor didn't notice. I can quote a lot more cases in this United States that would make your hair stand on end including giving kids back to parents that were arrested for running a meth lab in their home with the children present which happened in my own county. Your slippery slope argument simply doesn't work LMD because we don't do anything about the cases that something SHOULD be done about now. Do you honestly believe these people above should be allowed to continue to procreate? This is one area where I'm all for taking away their freedom to reproduce and I'm not a bit sorry to say so.

A few things. One, accidents do happen. 2, maybe socialized medicine not so great. Just saying. 3, I have a friend who works for CPS. It's never as cut and dry as the media likes to play it. There is so much more going on, always. We do plenty. Sometimes, it doesn't work. People die. (Incidentally, they are suppose to, you know. We all are.) Deal with it. Now, for the mean stuff. You're out of your ****ing mind if you actually believe that sterilization is the answer, and can join the ranks of the reasons why I hate the new "christianity." It means dick, literally, because it's permeated with people who lack the basic thought process of Christ. I don't mean deep spiritualism, I mean just the very basics, like, forgiveness. Just simple shit. So, seriously, work on that. Though I think you have good intentions what you have let yourself do in this situation is take on the mind of a criminal, hardened, with no thought for morality and the reality of what this does. Seriously, people, wake up. You can make an argument for virtually anything if you just disregard peoples rights, anything. ANYTHING. With the way some of you talk I see laws about how many kids you could have in the future and I also see it making you happy, which is really the scary part. It's nothing but shared misery.

[Loismustdie 0]

i dont even know what the **** youre talking about. thats not what i was arguing at all. when the hell did i say anything about a panel? stop taking other peoples words and applying them to me, and stop taking my words, changing them around in your twisted head, and spitting them back out. you have serious reading comprehension problems. do me a favor: go to your local elementary school, enroll for next semester, and tell them you need to start at the beginning.

Then, do me a favor, seriously. Read the whole thread. Look at what I said, in context, in said of jumping in out of the ****ing blue and going "Nyeah, nyeah, you could kill people to, that's not a good argument." You add nothing to the discussion and come off like a douche, which is why I tend to just say **** you and move on. Douchiness is all you do. Edit: Oh, and in case I forgot, blow me.

[irishguy 14]

Lois, considering how adament you are on personal freedoms I'm curious as to your response on this:

meh maybe, I just don't see how these issues are separate if one is against people being policed for over feeding their kids shouldn't they also be against people being policed for under feeding their kids? Where should the line be drawn? I'm in the camp that the freedom of choice argument holds little weight when it pertains to children and believe we as a society should err on the side of the best interest of the child. This is why I agree with rules/laws on protective gear for children while biking etc, laws on abuse etc. If you are doing what is in the best interest for your child instituting any rules/regulations should effect your life little to none at all but what it does is look out for the kids who aren't fortunate enough to have parents the caliber of what some in this thread claim to be.

[Loismustdie 0]

Lois, considering how adament you are on personal freedoms I'm curious as to your response on this:

I don't think it should be a law. If a kid gets nailed by a car, car wins. My own view of this is that laws like this are born out of some desire to "do something" but the truth of the matter is that kids aren't dropping like flies, getting nailed by cars willy nilly. Stairs are just as dangerous for some kids. So are pencils. The more we try to regulate and control the more I realize that, it's out of our control, so just live and do your best to be happy. Now, I personally wear a helmet at our local BMX track, and so does my daughter, and it's a rule, you don't wear you don't ride. If they would let me, I would do it with no helmet, it's restrictive, and personally I have fell many more times because I could not properly see the guy to my left or right and what he is doing, I have to rely on sound and knowledge of what I would do in his spot. For my daughter, I would make her wear one, it can be a dangerous sport. Abuse is self explanatory, within reason. If I punch my daughter in the face, is that abuse? Yes. If I spank her on her butt is that abuse? No. If I do it every half-hour, 12 hours a day, is that abuse? Yes. If she eats to much for 3 years and ends up obese, is that abuse? No. What if she eats to much McDonalds and isn't obese but she certainly has lost a year or two of life, is that abuse? No. The problem is this: We cannot change everything, cannot legislate everything, and in realizing that we accept that some will not make it. Some kids will ride right into traffic. Some parents won't feed there kids correctly. Some kids will run with scissors. Some parents will spank, some will not. That's life here in America. I would not have it any other way. EDIT: Quick note. I did use the term "within reason" which is key, and it's what's lacking right now all over the place. It seems that people in power who should be reasonably smart are not, and they lack the ability to reason, what's worse is they listen to hoards of constituents who are statistically uneducated and lack reason as bad as those in power or worse. So, as much as I argue for freedom in this thread I am not sure anymore of how long we can stop these types of things from happening, I wonder if twenty years from now the U.S. will even be recognizable. We lack resolve, we capitulate to the unreasonable because of the sheer numbers. It's not good.

[irishguy 14]

I agree with much of what you've said. The problem to me is the gray area of "within reason" I was brought up in a house where spanking was used as punishment- mind you reserved for special occasions and I don't in any way feel as though it was abuse. However I have friends that were brought up in a similar manner who see it as abuse and I have friends who were brought up in a house where they were cuffed in the back the head (not hard/ but enough to get the point across) who hold no ill feelings about it. So what is abuse to some isn't to others and there in lies the problem to me and the need for someone/organization/government to step in and draw the line. I'm a huge supporter of individual rights when it comes to adults but as I said I think society needs to err in the best interest of the child/ especailly the ones who aren't fortunate enough to have decent parents.That being said I absolutely see the possible dangers in this road and agree that it is a really slippery slope to go down. I don't know where the line should be drawn or if perhaps there are enough rules/regulations out there in this regard at the moment. But I do know no matter how hard you try, how many measures you take; kids get hurt, shit happens and its all a part of growing up so you can't just throw them in a bubble and wait until their ready to head off to college. On a side note: When I was sixteen I was hit by a car while biking, cracked some ribs, shattered my leg and some nerve damage in my neck. No head wounds except a small cut and no helmet worn. This was fifteen years ago when bike helmets were starting to make waves around here. For months afterwards people would make snide remarks to my parents about how I should've been wearing a helmet (you know because it's easy to force a sixteen year old to do anything) my Dad's response was always to inform them about a kid I went school with who three days after my accident got hit by a car while he was walking and suffered brain damage...guess he should've been wearing a helmet.

[hblask 1]

This is why we (I?) can't say that there is a 100% right to raise your children as you want:http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/21/us/21fai...qosKzSkGgTrFJLQTrials for Parents Who Chose Faith Over MedicineArticle Tools Sponsored ByBy DIRK JOHNSONPublished: January 20, 2009WESTON, Wis. — Kara Neumann, 11, had grown so weak that she could not walk or speak. Her parents, who believe that God alone has the ability to heal the sick, prayed for her recovery but did not take her to a doctor.After an aunt from California called the sheriff’s department here, frantically pleading that the sick child be rescued, an ambulance arrived at the Neumann’s rural home on the outskirts of Wausau and rushed Kara to the hospital. She was pronounced dead on arrival.The county coroner ruled that she had died from diabetic ketoacidosis resulting from undiagnosed and untreated juvenile diabetes. The condition occurs when the body fails to produce insulin, which leads to severe dehydration and impairment of muscle, lung and heart function.“Basically everything stops,” said Dr. Louis Philipson, who directs the diabetes center at the University of Chicago Medical Center, explaining what occurs in patients who do not know or “are in denial that they have diabetes.”About a month after Kara’s death last March, the Marathon County state attorney, Jill Falstad, brought charges of reckless endangerment against her parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann. Despite the Neumanns’ claim that the charges violated their constitutional right to religious freedom, Judge Vincent Howard of Marathon County Circuit Court ordered Ms. Neumann to stand trial on May 14, and Mr. Neumann on June 23. If convicted, each faces up to 25 years in prison.“The free exercise clause of the First Amendment protects religious belief,” the judge wrote in his ruling, “but not necessarily conduct.”Wisconsin law, he noted, exempts a parent or guardian who treats a child with only prayer from being criminally charged with neglecting child welfare laws, but only “as long as a condition is not life threatening.” Kara’s parents, Judge Howard wrote, “were very well aware of her deteriorating medical condition.”About 300 children have died in the United States in the last 25 years after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, said Rita Swan, executive director of Children’s Health Care Is a Legal Duty, a group based in Iowa that advocates punishment for parents who do not seek medical help when their children need it. Criminal codes in 30 states, including Wisconsin, provide some form of protection for practitioners of faith healing in cases of child neglect and other matters, protection that Ms. Swan’s group opposes. [...article goes on, see link]

[Nimue1995 1]

I knew that LMD would be for crackhead mothers having as many crack babies as they want. And I've watched and been involved with CPS before. And I know that they err far more on the side of parent's rights than on protecting kids. And yes it is a matter of manpower. Ask your local CPS what their client load per person in the department is. Believe me, we sweated out an entire year of CPS monkeying around with my daughter's case before we were finally able to get the adoption finalized and stop worrying that any time her bio mom could come take her back. And we've watched as her other daughter has been given back to her time and time and time again. Same with bio mom's sister the crackhead and her mother the drunk. I used to believe like you do LMD that CPS was always officiously overstepping their bounds and taking away parent's rights until I actually had to work with the system. Then I found out that they not only are overworked but they don't have enough places to put these kids if they do take them away so it only happens in the most egregious cases and sometimes not then. It's another situation where reality is much much different than media perception.

[Loismustdie 0]

I knew that LMD would be for crackhead mothers having as many crack babies as they want. And I've watched and been involved with CPS before. And I know that they err far more on the side of parent's rights than on protecting kids. And yes it is a matter of manpower. Ask your local CPS what their client load per person in the department is. Believe me, we sweated out an entire year of CPS monkeying around with my daughter's case before we were finally able to get the adoption finalized and stop worrying that any time her bio mom could come take her back. And we've watched as her other daughter has been given back to her time and time and time again. Same with bio mom's sister the crackhead and her mother the drunk. I used to believe like you do LMD that CPS was always officiously overstepping their bounds and taking away parent's rights until I actually had to work with the system. Then I found out that they not only are overworked but they don't have enough places to put these kids if they do take them away so it only happens in the most egregious cases and sometimes not then. It's another situation where reality is much much different than media perception.

The problem here is most definitely with you, in your attitudes towards "these crackheads." They are people. They need help. Help can be alot of things, including placing ones kids in care of another, but I can tell you it definitely is not taking ones kids and then raping them of reproductive organs. Your answer you proudly stand behind is nothing more than a horrid assault with one of the worst outcomes of rape, except done on purpose in a clinical environment. As usual, your own experiences hinder your judgement, you have learned nothing except a sort of primal hate, which is understandable but it is what it is.

[Loismustdie 0]

I agree with much of what you've said. The problem to me is the gray area of "within reason" I was brought up in a house where spanking was used as punishment- mind you reserved for special occasions and I don't in any way feel as though it was abuse. However I have friends that were brought up in a similar manner who see it as abuse and I have friends who were brought up in a house where they were cuffed in the back the head (not hard/ but enough to get the point across) who hold no ill feelings about it. So what is abuse to some isn't to others and there in lies the problem to me and the need for someone/organization/government to step in and draw the line. I'm a huge supporter of individual rights when it comes to adults but as I said I think society needs to err in the best interest of the child/ especailly the ones who aren't fortunate enough to have decent parents.That being said I absolutely see the possible dangers in this road and agree that it is a really slippery slope to go down. I don't know where the line should be drawn or if perhaps there are enough rules/regulations out there in this regard at the moment. But I do know no matter how hard you try, how many measures you take; kids get hurt, shit happens and its all a part of growing up so you can't just throw them in a bubble and wait until their ready to head off to college. On a side note: When I was sixteen I was hit by a car while biking, cracked some ribs, shattered my leg and some nerve damage in my neck. No head wounds except a small cut and no helmet worn. This was fifteen years ago when bike helmets were starting to make waves around here. For months afterwards people would make snide remarks to my parents about how I should've been wearing a helmet (you know because it's easy to force a sixteen year old to do anything) my Dad's response was always to inform them about a kid I went school with who three days after my accident got hit by a car while he was walking and suffered brain damage...guess he should've been wearing a helmet.

Those people making snide remarks are cut from the same cloth as the people wanting to "do something" about that devil restaurant McDonalds. But, yeah, where is the line? I don't know. The best we can do is try an maintain a level of people with good sense that outweighs those who don't, and make laws accordingly, but as I look around it's looking pretty grim.

[Don Giovanni 0]

Then, do me a favor, seriously. Read the whole thread. Look at what I said, in context, in said of jumping in out of the ****ing blue and going "Nyeah, nyeah, you could kill people to, that's not a good argument." You add nothing to the discussion and come off like a douche, which is why I tend to just say **** you and move on. Douchiness is all you do. Edit: Oh, and in case I forgot, blow me.

third time is not a charm for you and making sense. the least you could do is come up with your own insults though, instead of just copying parts of my posts word for word and saying them back to me.

[Loismustdie 0]

third time is not a charm for you and making sense. the least you could do is come up with your own insults though, instead of just copying parts of my posts word for word and saying them back to me.

Hi. Get involved in the conversation past the occasional snipe, or just GTFO. Seriously, you're doing your general waste of space thing and it gets old.

[loogie 115]

I'm curious as to how heavy LMD's kid is.

[Loismustdie 0]

I'm curious as to how heavy LMD's kid is.

Lol. Way to thin, kid can't put on weight. This really is about protecting personal freedoms for me, including how I raise my kid. If we start going down this road I see a future where I am told to not teach my daughter about hell because it's abusive.

[loogie 115]

Lol. Way to thin, kid can't put on weight.

I doubt she's too thin unless her stomach protrudes and she is indifferent to flies on her eyeball, but it certainly helps your argument that she's not rotund.

[Arsenic 0]

I didn't read your whole post but you are wrong SIR They have enough money to buy their kids quarter pounders but can't buy a six pack of sardines. I grew up in a low-income family but I didn't eat McDonald's every day. I woulda' loved to though, but my parents;those responsible bastards, bought that shit maybe once every couple weeks. You don't need to eat that shit for a month to know its not a good thing to do.

[Nimue1995 1]

A few things. One, accidents do happen. 2, maybe socialized medicine not so great. Just saying. 3, I have a friend who works for CPS. It's never as cut and dry as the media likes to play it. There is so much more going on, always. We do plenty. Sometimes, it doesn't work. People die. (Incidentally, they are suppose to, you know. We all are.) Deal with it. Now, for the mean stuff. You're out of your ****ing mind if you actually believe that sterilization is the answer, and can join the ranks of the reasons why I hate the new "christianity." It means dick, literally, because it's permeated with people who lack the basic thought process of Christ. I don't mean deep spiritualism, I mean just the very basics, like, forgiveness. Just simple shit. So, seriously, work on that. Though I think you have good intentions what you have let yourself do in this situation is take on the mind of a criminal, hardened, with no thought for morality and the reality of what this does. Seriously, people, wake up. You can make an argument for virtually anything if you just disregard peoples rights, anything. ANYTHING. With the way some of you talk I see laws about how many kids you could have in the future and I also see it making you happy, which is really the scary part. It's nothing but shared misery.

Do you believe this woman deserves to keep her reproductive rights LMD? I think that would be the least thing that should be done to her. Guess I'm just not a pacifist when it comes to people who would do this kind of thing. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090127/ap_on_...5j3VqVha04EtbAF