Brian Burke: Building Of A Champion

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I hope these rumours of Brian Burke having a love child with Hazel Mae are true. If not, Kudos to whoever dreamt up that rumour, excellent stuff.

 

I thought she had Terry Francona's kid?

I read some silly rumour type thing about her in the summer that she left Boston because of an affair with Terry Francona. ?!?!?

 

At least she's moving up the corporate ladder.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

This was not a hockey decision

 

And thats why I continue to hate MLSE, and hope for better for the Maple Leafs brand.

I could live with this if someone said "We dont think he's a good GM, he's not building a winner and we have someone better in mind, and we are giving him a 7year contract to bring a winner here".

 

No, instead its we're firing the guy after 4yrs because we dont like his personality. Oh, and he hasnt made the playoffs in his 3 full years in charge......so your saying making the playoffs in the first 3 years is what matters most, not taking 5years+ to build a contender. Now Nonis has a 3year deal, where hes gonna try to make the playoffs, or lose his job. What a clusterfck this organization is.

 

I sincerely hope Nonis does a good job and they build a true contender, but I dont see it happening.

[serge 904]

And thats why I continue to hate MLSE, and hope for better for the Maple Leafs brand.

I could live with this if someone said "We dont think he's a good GM, he's not building a winner and we have someone better in mind, and we are giving him a 7year contract to bring a winner here".

 

No, instead its we're firing the guy after 4yrs because we dont like his personality. Oh, and he hasnt made the playoffs in his 3 full years in charge......so your saying making the playoffs in the first 3 years is what matters most, not taking 5years+ to build a contender. Now Nonis has a 3year deal, where hes gonna try to make the playoffs, or lose his job. What a clusterfck this organization is.

 

I sincerely hope Nonis does a good job and they build a true contender, but I dont see it happening.

 

I dont disagree...Burke made some amazing trades..Some questionable trades, very few bad trades..

[Dubey 1,035]

The only questionable trade he made that I can think of is the Kessel trade. (which is a trade I never had a problem with)

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

The only thing he did I didnt like at the instant it was made was the Kessel deal. I can understand why you do it, and why you pay that price for a guy like Kessel, but I didnt like Kessel as the guy. I think hes a fantastic scorer, but thats all. Id take that risk with a bunch of other players before Id do it for Kessel. I liked that Burke found his guy and went for it, but I didnt like his choice of guy.

 

Burke also screwed up big on some signings, but to be honest, I thought Komisarek was a great get. Before that whole Lucic stuff, Komi played great in any Habs game I watched. I dont understand what happened to that guy, but he is just a shell of the player I used to watch.

 

 

I respected Burke because it genuinely looked like the Leafs had a guy who was going to do it his way, and his way meant a Championship at the end. I didnt have to agree with every move, I just needed to believe his sole purpose was to win it all, and not give a fck what the media+fans+even his board wanted him to do.

[Dubey 1,035]

In fact, if you made a list of the top 10 trades of the last 20 years in the NHL, you could make a good case for at least 3 of his trades to be on there; the Phaneuf deal, the gardiner/lupul deal, and the franson deal. the JVR/Schenn deal has the potential to be lopsided as well.

 

On the surface, this whole firing is ridiculous. I don't think anybody expected the Leafs to be a contender this quickly, and if they were going to fire him over his performance in the last 4 years, it should have been done immediately following last season.

 

If the firing is for non-hockey reasons, then I don't even know what to say.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Your not even getting into the things he's done with other teams, and these two are just off the top of my head:

 

-He made a bold move to move up in the Chris Pronger draft year to get him. I think the Whalers were picking like 7th, and Burke wanted Pronger bad. So he gave up a boatload to move up to #2 and grab Pronger. I recall thinking "crap, why didnt they grab the high scoring Russian. Damn"

 

-He maneuvred at the Sedins draft to make sure he could get both of them, cant recall, I think they went 2+3?

 

I do recall that many said the Whalers should have gone with Voctor Kozlov, who the other team took. LOL

And that the Rangers+Hawks did well in that Sedin year by grabbing Pavel Brendl+______. Cant recall Hawks guy.

 

Edit: Now looking up, I see the Hawks didnt make a pick, but now I think I recall they got Brian McCabe? Anyway, first overall in Sedins year was Patrik Stefan. HUGE busts at #1+#4, and Burke got Sedins at #2+#3.

[Dubey 1,035]

The only thing he did I didnt like at the instant it was made was the Kessel deal. I can understand why you do it, and why you pay that price for a guy like Kessel, but I didnt like Kessel as the guy. I think hes a fantastic scorer, but thats all. Id take that risk with a bunch of other players before Id do it for Kessel. I liked that Burke found his guy and went for it, but I didnt like his choice of guy.

 

Burke also screwed up big on some signings, but to be honest, I thought Komisarek was a great get. Before that whole Lucic stuff, Komi played great in any Habs game I watched. I dont understand what happened to that guy, but he is just a shell of the player I used to watch.

 

 

I respected Burke because it genuinely looked like the Leafs had a guy who was going to do it his way, and his way meant a Championship at the end. I didnt have to agree with every move, I just needed to believe his sole purpose was to win it all, and not give a fck what the media+fans+even his board wanted him to do.

 

 

Yeah I agree with a lot of this.

 

 

In hindsight, a lot of his UFA signings were a flop, but was anybody really upset with Komi/Beachemin/Armstrong when we first got them? I know I wasn't. It's easy to say in hindsight, but he also didn't lock anybody up for a ridiculous contract that will hinder the team down the road.I can't think of any major UFA guys that I would have wanted on the Leafs at the price/term that they ended up getting. Sometimes NOT making a move is the best possibl move.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Yeah I agree with a lot of this.

 

 

In hindsight, a lot of his UFA signings were a flop, but was anybody really upset with Komi/Beachemin/Armstrong when we first got them? I know I wasn't. It's easy to say in hindsight, but he also didn't lock anybody up for a ridiculous contract that will hinder the team down the road.I can't think of any major UFA guys that I would have wanted on the Leafs at the price/term that they ended up getting. Sometimes NOT making a move is the best possibl move.

 

As I think about all this, I though of other bad UFA's he made. And I thought of Komi and couldnt recall if Beauchmin was acquired in trade or UFA. Then google told me:

 

He got Beauchmin as a UFA, and then traded him away for Lupul+Gardiner!!!! Thats how you build a winner as the Leafs. Buy the damn free agents, and if you can, peddle them off for strong young assets. Way more easily said then done, but still, what a move.

[Zach6668 513]

Beauchemin wasn't even really a flop when he played here, he was just redundant because the Leafs had a ton of other d-men who they couldn't move. To get Gardiner at all for Beauchemin is unreal, not to mention the throw in, Lupul...

 

I think Burke, outside of the Kessel trade, had done quite well in Toronto.

 

You can't turn a team with no farm at all and Antropov/Poni/Stajan as "the core" into a contender, let alone a playoff team, over night, that's ridiculous.

 

In my mind, they clearly liked what he was doing, but apparently disliked him personally, or his silly little rules (extended x-mas trade freeze, hating deadline deals, etc), and that's why they keep Nonis and his whole staff on to take over Burke's path.

 

Btw, Burke's greatest downfall was not being able to land any major UFAs in Toronto. According to the Hockeycentral at Noon guys, the Leafs said Burke would be a big help in landing the Gaboriks, Nashes, Richards, etc, but they never came close, and a lot of it probably had to do with another of Burke's "rules", in that he didn't like long term deals. He couldn't compete with other teams.

[Fenxis 99]

Btw, Burke's greatest downfall was not being able to land any major UFAs in Toronto. According to the Hockeycentral at Noon guys, the Leafs said Burke would be a big help in landing the Gaboriks, Nashes, Richards, etc, but they never came close, and a lot of it probably had to do with another of Burke's "rules", in that he didn't like long term deals. He couldn't compete with other teams.

 

Except that you dont' really want to be signing the big UFAs until your team has turned it around. You use the signings to move your middle of the pack / borderline playoff team into a contender. Not move your bottom feeder into a bad draft pick finish!

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

Except that you dont' really want to be signing the big UFAs until your team has turned it around. You use the signings to move your middle of the pack / borderline playoff team into a contender. Not move your bottom feeder into a bad draft pick finish!

 

ya, exactly.

 

If they were a little more developed with youth, right about now would be a perfect time to go and get Getzlaf + Perry in the offseason.

[Zach6668 513]

Fair enough, I guess. I don't know. Any time you can add a top line talent, with the pockets MLSE has, they should probably do it anyways, though.

 

Leafs aren't a million pieces away or anything. They need a top liner and a goalie, really.

[Fenxis 99]

@bcostellothn The Brian Burke presser was a fascinating dynamic struggle between political correctness, moral high ground and seething bitterness.

[mrdannyg 274]

Your not even getting into the things he's done with other teams, and these two are just off the top of my head:

 

-He made a bold move to move up in the Chris Pronger draft year to get him. I think the Whalers were picking like 7th, and Burke wanted Pronger bad. So he gave up a boatload to move up to #2 and grab Pronger. I recall thinking "crap, why didnt they grab the high scoring Russian. Damn"

 

-He maneuvred at the Sedins draft to make sure he could get both of them, cant recall, I think they went 2+3?

 

I do recall that many said the Whalers should have gone with Voctor Kozlov, who the other team took. LOL

And that the Rangers+Hawks did well in that Sedin year by grabbing Pavel Brendl+______. Cant recall Hawks guy.

 

Edit: Now looking up, I see the Hawks didnt make a pick, but now I think I recall they got Brian McCabe? Anyway, first overall in Sedins year was Patrik Stefan. HUGE busts at #1+#4, and Burke got Sedins at #2+#3.

 

Great post.

 

Pretty amazing that I could guy miss the playoffs every year he was in charge of my team, and we all pretty much agree he did a great job. I don't think many people wouldn't consider him to be among the top 5-10 GMs out there. To fire him, with weird timing, for admittedly non-hockey reasons is hilarious. Love the corporate mentality - lets buy a $2B asset, put a bunch of corporate guys who don't know the industry in charge, and let them get rid of the most knowledge guy in the organization who actually knows the industry.

 

Imagine that taking place somewhere else! Imagine we all win the lottery - all of us FCP guys. We decide to spend a billion dollars (it was a big lottery, apparently), and buy...a mining company. None of us know anything about mining. Then, a week before mining starts, we fire the guy who was running the company before and is highly respected in the mining industry, just because we think his assistant is a better corporate lackey. It's like lightning money on fire.

[Fenxis 99]

Edit: Now looking up, I see the Hawks didnt make a pick, but now I think I recall they got Brian McCabe? Anyway, first overall in Sedins year was Patrik Stefan. HUGE busts at #1+#4, and Burke got Sedins at #2+#3.

 

1993 entry draft: 2 40 NY Islanders Bryan McCabe D Spokane Chiefs [WHL]

[digitalmonkey 929]

As I've stated on Twitter: Brian Burke has an inability to be politically correct...and I love it!

 

I'm almost certain if I were to conduct a press conference it would be similar to his. The questions some of these reporters ask...jeezus...it's like they don't hear anything anyone else asks. How many times at the press conference did someone ask him a question similar to one already asked? I think he repeated the same answer at least 5 times....you'll have to ask them...you'll have to ask MLSE....you'll have to ask the Toronto Maple Leaf organization. I wanted to choke some of them for him.

[serge 904]

As I've stated on Twitter: Brian Burke has an inability to be politically correct...and I love it!

 

I'm almost certain if I were to conduct a press conference it would be similar to his. The questions some of these reporters ask...jeezus...it's like they don't hear anything anyone else asks. How many times at the press conference did someone ask him a question similar to one already asked? I think he repeated the same answer at least 5 times....you'll have to ask them...you'll have to ask MLSE....you'll have to ask the Toronto Maple Leaf organization. I wanted to choke some of them for him.

 

I will miss that...Best answer to Steve Simmons:

 

"Ask them, the best part about today is I probably never have to speak to you again"

 

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/video/brian-burke-slams-steve-simmons/

[serge 904]

I have a honest question to pose to the masses here...Please try to answer without making jokes and easy shots at the team.

 

IF the Toronto Maple Leafs make the playoffs and in the next 2-3 years contend for a cup, shouldnt Brian Burke get all the credit?

 

I really did not understand the firing of Burke and the timing and still dont agree to it to this day.

 

The success of the team would be because of what he has done to put the core of the team together, and stockpiled young talent which enables the team to be more competitive.

 

The other part of this is , he actually built a core , through difficult, controversial at times moves, trades and signings.

 

Its easy to build a winner in Edmonton, when you are drafting first overall every year...I could be the GM of that team and still accomplish what they are doing(ok do some extent).

 

I think what Burke did last year, was hang on to Ron Wilson too long, looking back on it, if he fired Wilson earlier on , the Leafs probably make the playoffs last year and he still has his job.

 

Thoughts?

[Fenxis 99]

IF the Toronto Maple Leafs make the playoffs and in the next 2-3 years contend for a cup, shouldnt Brian Burke get all the credit?

 

Depends on what moves Nonnis makes in the next couple of years. ie: it's arguable that Murray put many of the pieces in place in Anaheim but Burke put them over the top and thus gets pretty much all the credit. Same for Toronto today; if JVR/Kadri/etc bloom and take the Leafs to the post-season then he'll definitely get some credit but the lion's share will be given to Nonnis for his moves.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

You use some words Serge that makes it hard to agree with what your saying.

For instance, no way should Burke get "all the credit". As of 3 weeks ago, you have no idea what Burke would have done, and what would have happened.

And if your talking about the Leafs as a contender in 2-3 years, how can a guy possibly get all the credit for what will take place then, after all the moves that may or may not happen from now til then?

And Im not just talking about the moves Nonis will make.....Im suggesting that we dont know what Burke would have done. If Kadri has a 75pt season next year, everyone will sing Burke's praises, but then I wonder if Burke would have lost his patience and traded him away this year? We dont know.

 

But if I am to assume your point is that Burke deserves some of the credit, then yes, he does. IF the players he brought in get better, over a long term.

 

Fenxis makes the point I would have, and one of my favourite quotes from Burke was when he was talking about his old Stanley Cup win, and he mentioned Murray. He said a lot of the guys Murray brought in won us the Cup, he deserves a ton of the credit. I liked that show of respect.

 

We dont know what Burke would have done, and we dont know what Nonis will do. I think Burke should get credit for a lot of the things going on here, good and bad.

 

 

ps- I also really dislike how you say its easy to put together a winner like Edmonton. It takes a lot more then a couple of 1st overall lottery wins to get it right and build a true winner. If its easy to build a winner that way, then maybe Burke should have done the same?

[Dubey 1,035]

not to mention the Oilers are still arguably the worst team in the entire league at this point, so the Jury is still very much out on them.

[serge 904]

You use some words Serge that makes it hard to agree with what your saying.

For instance, no way should Burke get "all the credit". As of 3 weeks ago, you have no idea what Burke would have done, and what would have happened.

And if your talking about the Leafs as a contender in 2-3 years, how can a guy possibly get all the credit for what will take place then, after all the moves that may or may not happen from now til then?

And Im not just talking about the moves Nonis will make.....Im suggesting that we dont know what Burke would have done. If Kadri has a 75pt season next year, everyone will sing Burke's praises, but then I wonder if Burke would have lost his patience and traded him away this year? We dont know.

 

But if I am to assume your point is that Burke deserves some of the credit, then yes, he does. IF the players he brought in get better, over a long term.

 

Fenxis makes the point I would have, and one of my favourite quotes from Burke was when he was talking about his old Stanley Cup win, and he mentioned Murray. He said a lot of the guys Murray brought in won us the Cup, he deserves a ton of the credit. I liked that show of respect.

 

We dont know what Burke would have done, and we dont know what Nonis will do. I think Burke should get credit for a lot of the things going on here, good and bad.

 

 

ps- I also really dislike how you say its easy to put together a winner like Edmonton. It takes a lot more then a couple of 1st overall lottery wins to get it right and build a true winner. If its easy to build a winner that way, then maybe Burke should have done the same?

 

I am going to disagree with your Edmonton analysis...SURE it takes a lot more than 1st round picks..

 

But building a core of Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov etc through the draft is a lot easier then building a team through trades and other avenues.

 

All those guys are high draft picks, Eberle being much later...

 

No one is going to lose on purpose to try and build a team that way, if they are then shame on them for cheating their fans...Maybe it doesnt work..Columbus, Islanders and Edmonton(still) suck ..We will see what happens.

[MapleLeafpoker 1,462]

I am going to disagree with your Edmonton analysis...SURE it takes a lot more than 1st round picks..

But building a core of Hall, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins and Yakupov etc through the draft is a lot easier then building a team through trades and other avenues.

All those guys are high draft picks, Eberle being much later...

No one is going to lose on purpose to try and build a team that way, if they are then shame on them for cheating their fans...Maybe it doesnt work..Columbus, Islanders and Edmonton(still) suck ..We will see what happens.

 

Im not sure where we disagree, cause my opinion always has been that you have to bottom out to get the best picks, best players. But I also think it doesnt guarantee anything, and you still need to do a lot more work to create a true annual contender.

[pezeveng 207]

So far Carlyle looks like the right coach for this team and that's thanks to Burke. If hanging on to WIlson is what ultimately led to his firing than I think it was rightfully so because that ship could have been saved, Burke was too loyal for his own good.

 

Also wtf is with this Hazel Mae talk internet is a funny place.