$10 Into $100,000

[Nashtak 0]

I've decided to do this challenge, but always put 10% on the table, only play 6-max, and I'll move down in limits if forced to. I haven't decided whether or not to play NLHE or PLO. Don't worry, though, I'll be sure to not keep you all updated, since nobody cares. Just thought I'd mention I've been inspired to try it.

I somewhat felt like doing it too, but without any real objectives. Just for the fun of comparing my progress with DN.

[TraptSteve 0]

LOL.if you manage to get to 25nl... there is 0 chance you will come close to making it to 100nl using a "5 buyin rule"And LOL at thinking the games wont get tough until 5/10nl. LOLOLOLOL.

Why would anyone bother playing 25nl for profit anyway? I'd rather play 1-2 nl live or work part time at a gas station (oh wait...)I think DN goes busto at 100NL FWIW

[cwik 0]

First off I wanna say I like Daniel. That said... I'll give anyone 20-1 that he doesn't make it.

[mcgroover 0]

Are these limits different at all to what you expected, Daniel?

[stevel999 0]

When I had a spare moment today I made a quick calculation to work out how many hands it would take to get to $100,000 starting from $10 using Daniel's rules.The answer? If he won at an average of 5bb/100 hands, it would take just over 90,000 hands. If he won at an average of 10BB/100 hands, obviously it would take half that number. For a multi-tabler, 90,000 hands is nothing, but for a single tabler (can anyone confirm that DN is just playing one table?... I can't imagine he plays more than 2 anyway) that is a lot of hands. This of course ignores his main obstacle that I have mentioned before; variance will kill anyone who is only playing with 5 buy-ins. Unless he runs like a God, he will not get passed 10c/25c NL.

[holdemlt 0]

'Frankly', you must be kidding us? How on earth are you going to achieve $100 (forget the "K" part) playing with 1/5 of your BR at the table?E.g. I had three sessions today, 1st lost AK vs AT going allin on TURN and the guy hitting T on the river. 2nd lost while holding QQ overpair vs XX (can't remember that trash, like K8 no pair, or so) going allin on the TURN again and villain hitting inside straight draw on the river. An the third was an MTT when i pushed my 6BB with AJ against JTo and the board came four clubs making the T high flush for the moron.Well, if you buy for 1/5 and never move down then it makes you have smt like 8-10 buyins when you're doing good. Well, I do lose right about that amount of buyins in a row, every second day or so at these micros. You play less, so it may take you a couple of weeks, I'd bet you're busted in the next 3 to 7 days if you stick with your current BRM.

[Dennis 0]

When I had a spare moment today I made a quick calculation to work out how many hands it would take to get to $100,000 starting from $10 using Daniel's rules.The answer? If he won at an average of 5bb/100 hands, it would take just over 90,000 hands. If he won at an average of 10BB/100 hands, obviously it would take half that number. For a multi-tabler, 90,000 hands is nothing, but for a single tabler (can anyone confirm that DN is just playing one table?... I can't imagine he plays more than 2 anyway) that is a lot of hands. This of course ignores his main obstacle that I have mentioned before; variance will kill anyone who is only playing with 5 buy-ins. Unless he runs like a God, he will not get passed 10c/25c NL.

did u include the fact into your calculations, that Daniel will move up in limits?

[holdemlt 0]

did u include the fact into your calculations, that Daniel will move up in limits?

Sure he did. However he did not include that Daniel will either be to move down the limits or change 1/5 part into more realistic 1/30 or so. The hardest thing about all these "zero to hero" is that you always play at the highest limit you can afford, and when you hit a bad streak you hit it at the same highest stakes you can afford (because when you hit a winning streak, you move up until the bad streak comes one day and finds you playing at your max anyway). So you lose let's say 500BB and then move down which makes you have to win back 1,000BB to be where you were before a bad streak. I.e. you always must win 2x amount of blinds to recover from the losing streak. It's the price you pay for the minimized risk of going bust.Daniel should think about this.

[DanielNegreanu 141]

Sure he did. However he did not include that Daniel will either be to move down the limits or change 1/5 part into more realistic 1/30 or so. The hardest thing about all these "zero to hero" is that you always play at the highest limit you can afford, and when you hit a bad streak you hit it at the same highest stakes you can afford (because when you hit a winning streak, you move up until the bad streak comes one day and finds you playing at your max anyway). So you lose let's say 500BB and then move down which makes you have to win back 1,000BB to be where you were before a bad streak. I.e. you always must win 2x amount of blinds to recover from the losing streak. It's the price you pay for the minimized risk of going bust.Daniel should think about this.

I think you are missing something. I will ALWAYS have 1/5 of my BR as a buy in, even after losing a buy in. So for example, if I started with $10.00 at $0.01-$0.02 and lost my bankroll every time it would go like this:-2.00-1.60-1.28-1.02-1.00-1.00-1.00-1.10 At the higher limits the min buy in is smaller so I'll be able to have even more buy ins that that. Plus, I will up my bankroll when I get to the higher limits. Plus I'll quit every time I double up. I'll need to be lucky obviously, but it's certainly possible.

[holdemlt 0]

I think you are missing something. I will ALWAYS have 1/5 of my BR as a buy in, even after losing a buy in. So for example, if I started with $10.00 at $0.01-$0.02 and lost my bankroll every time it would go like this:-2.00-1.60-1.28-1.02-1.00-1.00-1.00-1.10 At the higher limits the min buy in is smaller so I'll be able to have even more buy ins that that. Plus, I will up my bankroll when I get to the higher limits. Plus I'll quit every time I double up. I'll need to be lucky obviously, but it's certainly possible.

So, these are 8 times to buy-in at the table, right? And this is from the point you have 500BB ("doing good" what i call).I can bet 1:1 that if you play (good poker where if your reads tell you to go 50BB allin with TPTK on flop, you may end up against so hard-to-fold pocket 66 hitting set on the river) 100 sessions with buyins of $1-$2 at 2NL you will encounter a streak of 8 lost buy-ins IN A ROW among that hundred.I'm at +12 PTBB/100 after 38K hands on 10NL. And i know how these are played. You must push it to the limit with KQ hitting TP, because they play Q9. If you do, you win effective ~25 BB/100 and have some weird swings, if not - you win 2-3BB/100 and save your nerves. Which one you choose?Anyways, having a BR that allows you to buy in for 8 times is a no way.Daniel, I'd love it so much if you made it. Can you promise here you will give it a second shot starting $50 and playing... erm, 1/15th of your BR at any given time? It's possible, and you're the person i'd love to see the progress for, but... Anyway, why not, "if.... then 2nd shot with a more conservative BR", please.... 'k? :-)EDIT: i did not mean to sound aggressive or suggesting maniac play. I just want to point out that whenever Daniel gets comfortable at micros to get the gut feeling for those weird plays of called AA hitting set on flop and checking to the river (happened to me yesterday at 10NL, the guy calls AA, flops a set, checks to the river, then calls my 1/2 pot bet (on a safe board). I believe he did not understand what makes a poker hand. The point is, you end up in these situations if you're to win more than 3BB/100. And this is what makes it impossible to stay tuned with 8 buy ins.

[Merby 3]

First off I wanna say I like Daniel. That said... I'll give anyone 20-1 that he doesn't make it.

If you offer me 200-1, I will take your bet for anywhere up to $100 on my end: (ie: up to a bet of my $100 that he makes it against your $20 000 that he doesn't make it...)...It's *almost* free money for you.

[stevel999 0]

Interesting discussion about an important topic (ie bankroll management). I agree with holdemIT. Using the 'ensure you only buyin for 1/5th your bankroll' strategy only gives you 8 times to buy-in if you start at $10. This strategy also means that you will often be buying into a table short. There are many short-stackers at the microlimits almost all who play very badly and it is easy to take advantage of them. Nevertheless, if you know what you are doing, undoubtedly it can be very profitable to play short-stacked (e.g buying in with 30-60 big blinds). The online poker tuition sites (certainly Cardrunners; not sure about PokerVT) teach this strategy. And I am sure Daniel would be an effective short stack player. However, I can't help but think that the win-rate is going to be compromised.The other comment relates to variance and how to minimize it. Clearly there are playing styles that can minimize variance thus reducing the possibility of losing a buy-in say 8 times in a row. E.g, trying to avoid playing big pots with overpairs, or TPTK, on seemingly dry boards (and especially drawy boards), and avoid shoving with big draws. Presumably saying "...I'll quit every time I double up" is for this reason, although again this is going to compromise overall win-rate.http://blindtilt.com/

[ohdannyboy 0]

(...hes basically CRUSHING 0.02$/0.04$ !!!!1)

[Merby 3]

(...hes basically CRUSHING 0.02$/0.04$ !!!!1)

LOLNice first post, I see great things in your future here......And welcome!

[BigMagic 0]

Daniel, I have built a few micro limit BRs before blowing them in tournaments or cashing out. Currently I started with $3 one week ago. I have been up and down like a yo you but have managed to get it to $27 in a week. I of course have dozens of bad beat stories I won't bother you with or the sic call down I made with A high for five bucks. I think identifying the way someone plays is even more important at the micro limits. Some will raise any two on the button, some will fold a pair to a river bet while others will call down with an under pair. I usually am willing to drop a couple of bucks to figure out a workable strategy. I always buy in short $1 and load up if the table is juicy. Good luck! Hope to catch you on one of the tables.

[loogie 115]

Daniel, I have built a few micro limit BRs before blowing them in tournaments or cashing out. Currently I started with $3 one week ago. I have been up and down like a yo you but have managed to get it to $27 in a week. I of course have dozens of bad beat stories I won't bother you with or the sic call down I made with A high for five bucks. I think identifying the way someone plays is even more important at the micro limits. Some will raise any two on the button, some will fold a pair to a river bet while others will call down with an under pair. I usually am willing to drop a couple of bucks to figure out a workable strategy. I always buy in short $1 and load up if the table is juicy. Good luck! Hope to catch you on one of the tables.

Would you consider becoming a Poker VT pro?

[scootterxlch 0]

is there anyway a bunch of us can sign up and do the same right along and collectively track results. it would ba a cool study nd pokerstars could track it just an idea but it would be a great measure of skill and adaptability a tru test maybe

[Nashtak 0]

is there anyway a bunch of us can sign up and do the same right along and collectively track results. it would ba a cool study nd pokerstars could track it just an idea but it would be a great measure of skill and adaptability a tru test maybe

PokerStars will not bother. Let's say that a bunch of us wanted to do as you wish, it would have to be trough this forum. Not that i dislike your idea of trying this too but i wouldn't qualify it as a ''great measure of skill and adaptability''. Only in the long run, maybe, but why bother if we could simply play at our level, compare our monthly results and actually do what we would do in the first place anyway; play poker?

[holdemlt 0]

PokerStars will not bother. Let's say that a bunch of us wanted to do as you wish, it would have to be trough this forum. Not that i dislike your idea of trying this too but i wouldn't qualify it as a ''great measure of skill and adaptability''. Only in the long run, maybe, but why bother if we could simply play at our level, compare our monthly results and actually do what we would do in the first place anyway; play poker?

Pokerstars will definitely not. The simple fact is that at least 90% of all tries would fail, so it's not a good idea for any poker room to make such stats public. Though it would still be interesting.I myself now started playing 6-max micros on stars with a separate BR of $10. Never buy in for more than 1/10 of my BR (usually it's 1/15) and now i'm closing $50 after three days. I was 3-4-tabling for a total of about 80-100 table hours. The worst down swing was for 4.5 buy-ins, so it even felt on my side, while i can imagine this would have really put Daniel to the extreme risk of ending the quest.By the way, is Daniel going to play once a week only? It will take him 30 years then, not 3 :-)

[UncleHoot 0]

Has anyone told Phil Hellmuth about this yet??? I'm sure he'll want to go from $0 to $1,000,000 on UltimateBet, just to prove once and for all that he is the best poker player the world has ever seen.

[Balloon guy 158]

Has anyone told Phil Hellmuth about this yet??? I'm sure he'll want to go from $0 to $1,000,000 on UltimateBet, just to prove once and for all that he is the best poker player the world has ever seen.

If this happened on Ultimate Bet, I don't think the story would be Phil played well...

[govikes 0]

hes working on his challenge now...im 8th in line weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[grocery_mony 8]

hes working on his challenge now...im 8th in line weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

last week I was eleventh and worked my way up to second on the list when he busted

[govikes 0]

last week I was eleventh and worked my way up to second on the list when he busted

sitting in 5th...i plan shoving every pot

[EatMyAces 0]

Honestly, I think it will only take him 18 months max to accomplish this feat. On a personal note, I have started with nothing but a freeroll win on Bodog and ran it up to $3K in a month. And after a $2 freeroll place on FTP, it took me 3 months to run that up to $2K. And with all the .10 tourneys and micro limit cash games, this isn't just possible - it's very probable.