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Thanks guys. Keep this info coming, this is turning into a pretty informational thread.Another question. If there are no fish at 10/20 - 25/50 how are guys making money there? Aren't they just trading it around? From your analysis, it seems like this is much different than at a casino where a tourist might sit with 5K in a 10-20 game, or a rich whale might head to Bobby's room or something like that.Or is from 2/4 guys taking shots, and doing poorly at it?
This mostly, but it's not neccesarily poorly. Whenever you want to move up there is a big learning curve. Also, there are regs at every level it doesn't mean every reg is equal. Good regs can still make money off less good regs, then less good regs go down to 5-10/3-6/2-4 make money off those people move up and repeat process til they become one of the better regs at 10-20 or stay down to a level they can beat.
Also don't forget people who are good at one game but take shots at another.Tourney donk hits a nice score in a tourney and takes a shot at NL cash. Tourney winners have historically fed high limit cash games both online and live.In my limit holdem games it's great when NL cash players branch out and try limit out as eventhough they are solid at their game they may not be very good at other games since they lack experience.
Plus there is always Guy and Steve Harris that have enough money to share with everyone.
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This mostly, but it's not neccesarily poorly. Whenever you want to move up there is a big learning curve. Also, there are regs at every level it doesn't mean every reg is equal. Good regs can still make money off less good regs, then less good regs go down to 5-10/3-6/2-4 make money off those people move up and repeat process til they become one of the better regs at 10-20 or stay down to a level they can beat.
Also this. I think like 2/3 of the way through the year I went through my DB and sorted by hands played to find out how I was doing against regs. A significant portion of my profit came from the top 100 players I had played the most hands against.
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First off, congrats to all on some great graphs/stories.My 2008:2008-1.jpgIncluding rakeback/bonuses:year.jpgSo 2008 was an interesting year for me in general (in poker and in real life). Basically outside entrepreneurial endeavors weren't going so well, so in May I had been playing more poker, got up like 6k for the month (which was waaay more than I had ever made at teh pokerz), took a shot at a juicy 3/6 table, lost 2 stacks on a couple bad beats, and that turned me into scared money at the tables, as $ was pretty tight in real life, and I proceeded to play poorly until I got some great help from folks here (Simo in particular, and Rdog (who basically called me a dumbass in the Challenge Thread and was 100% correct :4h), among others).After taking a few weeks off and doing nothing but studying, I came into August and basically said "F it. I am now a professional poker player. Make money dammit." Lol. :club: Luckily I ran pretty well and had a 5 figure month. Of course in September, I got up like 8k the first half of the month, then broke some personal rules I had to try some other things out, and I had a really bad week (mostly playing poorly) that killed my month and brought my ego back down to earth. Overall, I am very happy with how this year turned out, and honestly my goal 12 months ago was to be doing this full time, and I have achieved that goal and the freedoms that come along with it, so that in itself is a pretty big deal to me.I started the year playing 25NL (for bankroll and skill considerations), and am now playing mostly 200NL and some 400NL. I still think I suck overall (as witnessed by the last big spike in the graph where basically I forgot how to play poker for 2 days this month and didn't have the self awareness to realize it and stop), and have a ton to improve on, but I have decided this is what I want to do as a profession as I love this game, so I know my skill level 365 days from now will astronomically higher.I have big plans for 2009, and I am confident that with the right effort and work ethic I can get there.Gogogogogogo FCP in '09! :ts

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So 2008 was an interesting year for me in general (in poker and in real life). Basically outside entrepreneurial endeavors weren't going so well, so in May I had been playing more poker, got up like 6k for the month (which was waaay more than I had ever made at teh pokerz), took a shot at a juicy 3/6 table, lost 2 stacks on a couple bad beats, and that turned me into scared money at the tables, as $ was pretty tight in real life, and I proceeded to play poorly until I got some great help from folks here (Simo in particular, and Rdog (who basically called me a dumbass in the Challenge Thread and was 100% correct:)), among others).
I don't remember this :club:. What was it about? You are definitely one of my favorite posters now!!!
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Pretty sure this thread shows cash>tournies for consistant loot. Tournies - 55kOmaha8/Cash online - 12k (nice little swong this month basically decimated my year)PLO cash - 3k very small sample sizeLive cash - 10k (did'nt play much, want to increase this in the new year and improve my live NL game)Meh overall kind of disapointed, I need to work on my cash game discipline and learn to take a loss rather than getting stubborn. That cost me a lot of money. I ran fairly poorly in some pretty big tournies that could have gave me a really huge boost, overall I think my tourney game improved but I need to start putting up better results in the huge field tournies, that is an area I would like to improve in 1k+ fields.

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Well, I wasn't going to post on this thread, mainly because my results were pretty poor this year, imo. My ROI is unknown to me, but is probably about -30%. Part of this is due to bad BR management, some due to tilt and some due to variance, because I mainly play large MTT's, in which variance plays a rather large part, apparently.All told, I'm definitely in debt from this year from redepositing when I'm upset and registering for tournies that are outside of my BR. Frankly, I was an idiot this year and I hope to improve my BR management, lower my tiltability and muster up a lot more patience when short or long stacked. I don't seem to have much difficulty with an average stack, but I have problems hanging on to a large stack and I'm pretty sure I miss opportunities when short.No graphs or charts for me, folks...If anyone reads this and feels like they can offer some small tokens of wisdom or a couple of solid trade secrets or point me in the direction of a resource and/or MTT guru to help me improve, it would be appreciated.Best regards in the New Year!Puff puff pass the variance...

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I don't remember this :ts. What was it about? You are definitely one of my favorite posters now!!!
Lol, no worries. I don't remember exactly what you said, but basically just were blunt and said that I was just starting to play 100 and 200nl and was dumb or trying to play in to be in 400nl and 600nl games. I wasn't offended by it at all, but it did put things a little more in perspective.So thanks I guess. :club:
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I have a question for Rdog, Tre, Jordan, etc.You guys seem like you are all putting in a ton of hands at anywhere from .50/1.00 up to an occasional 10/20.This seems like true grinding to me, especially Rdog. Doesn't this get old after awhile and is there a point where you would rather play a couple hundred hands a day at 10/20 to 25/50 NL even if you have the same overall income and not pound the mouse so much?BTW, albeit rare, this is actually a serious question.
I honestly didn't put in an entire years worth of work. I was tilted and just didn't play, I traveled, didn't play, got married didn't play, started an internship, didn't play. Some were choices, some I couldn't control. Overall, as far as poker goes, I'm not really satisfied with how the year went as far as how many hands I played, but I can't complain with what I earned...just from a poker perspective I'm basically 'meh'.I dont think you ever really wanna be content with playing a few hundred hands at 10/20 or 25/50 and hope you run well enough in that small sample to make money. They play a lot of hands in order to make money, not jump limits and play less and hope to profit.Some people are more risk adverse also. 10/20 online is arguably the toughest limit to beat, many people will tell you that...so it's not like you can just insta beat that limit just cause you been beating 1/2 or 2/4 or w/e.I consistently play higher stakes than rdog and matt, and as a result I have bigger monetary swings. But I know matt can play higher, it's just normally going to be a decision based on his working br, where he is at mentally, and what he wants to accomplish. I think the same goes for rdog and many others. I've said before that I want to continue to move up in limits, but things that hold me back are not playing enough hands (which is my main goal for 09), and being distracted from stuff in real life. I never like playing when I'm distracted, and it would be silly for me to start playing 10/20 when I feel that way, just as it would for anyone.bank roll is really important. The day you start playing 2/4, 3/6, 5/10, 10/20 (especially HU) you have to be ready and willing to win/lose 10 buy-ins that day. 4k, 6k, 10k, or 20k respectively. I've gotten to that point at 5/10 but not with 10/20. Thus I won't play 10/20, at least not with regs like I will at the previous limits.I hope that kinda answered your question. I think anyone would tell you they would rather play 25% of the hands they are now, and make 2x what they are making now, but it's often just not realistic, and to make it happen it takes a lot of work, effort, and bigger swings which = more emotional strain than you may wish to subject yourself to.- Jordan
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El Cuapo questions...
Edit: I think I was confused and thought you were asking why people don't play more hands not less :club: , I think my points are still valid, but doesn't really answer your question, which is basically about bankroll management and game selection like Jordan said.Acid, Rdog, and others covered this pretty nicely, but I just wanna add in a couple points. First, poker is a lot different then most other jobs, specifically much more mentally draining. An hour of 2-3 tabling HU or 8-12 tabling 6max, is probably a lot more mentally taxing then sitting in an office doing whatever cooperate people do. :ts Not that what they do isn't important simply it doesn't take the continued 100% thinking and focus at all times. Because of this I think playing 40 hours of poker a week feels a lot longer then most other jobs. (This doesn't mean that it isn't funner to do, simply more draining).Secondly, one of the benefits of the professional poker life style is you can make your own schedule. My guess if you asked most people in the work world if they would like to work equal or more hours a week then they already do, few would yes. Because it is possible to make significantly more money than before in a shorter amount of time, one starts to ask themselves after they can already financially support their current life style, is makeing more money or enjoying life more important? Often the later wins out. Not to say the two can't overlap, simply at some point you have to rationalize to yourself why making more money is important.Lastly, congrats to everyone in this thread who were able to 'live the dream', and gl for everybody else who will take their shot in '09.
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I have a question for Rdog, Tre, Jordan, etc.You guys seem like you are all putting in a ton of hands at anywhere from .50/1.00 up to an occasional 10/20.This seems like true grinding to me, especially Rdog. Doesn't this get old after awhile and is there a point where you would rather play a couple hundred hands a day at 10/20 to 25/50 NL even if you have the same overall income and not pound the mouse so much?BTW, albeit rare, this is actually a serious question.
For me it has a lot to do with my life situation more than anything. I honestly feel like I could beat any level I play at once I get adjusted to the level of play and I think one day I'll get to that point. Right now however I need to focus on making consistent money to pay off bills and save up for a house. I'm confident that I can make 10k to 20k a month grinding 1/2 and eventually some 2/4. Once I have enough money saved up for bills and don't feel like I would be letting my family down if I had a -10k day I'll have no problem moving up to 5-10 and above. For me it hasn't really gotten old at all because I personally view it as a challenge every day to beat every single person I play and win as much money as I possibly can. Although its called grinding, I don't feel like its a grind in anyway.
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Meh - not bad for the amount I played online I guess - ROI not badhttp://www.officialpokerrankings.com/poker...F2C2B4.html?t=2Live - probably around 2k up playing 3/6 limit and occasionally 1/2 limit. Perhaps 20 visits this year. Definitely not making $40/hour doing that. ;)edit - made a little bit on sngs too:Username Games Played Av. Profit Av. Stake Av. ROI Total Profit Form Network Filter SCYukon 283 $1 $10 20% $161 - PokerStars x

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i actually just totaled up everything since i put in my last hand for the year.its hair under 3/4 of what i thought it was. im very disappointed. the only encouraging thing is that my hourly from sep onward was 50% higher than my yearly hourly.

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Edit: I think I was confused and thought you were asking why people don't play more hands not less :club: , I think my points are still valid, but doesn't really answer your question, which is basically about bankroll management and game selection like Jordan said.Acid, Rdog, and others covered this pretty nicely, but I just wanna add in a couple points. First, poker is a lot different then most other jobs, specifically much more mentally draining. An hour of 2-3 tabling HU or 8-12 tabling 6max, is probably a lot more mentally taxing then sitting in an office doing whatever cooperate people do. :ts Not that what they do isn't important simply it doesn't take the continued 100% thinking and focus at all times. Because of this I think playing 40 hours of poker a week feels a lot longer then most other jobs. (This doesn't mean that it isn't funner to do, simply more draining).Secondly, one of the benefits of the professional poker life style is you can make your own schedule. My guess if you asked most people in the work world if they would like to work equal or more hours a week then they already do, few would yes. Because it is possible to make significantly more money than before in a shorter amount of time, one starts to ask themselves after they can already financially support their current life style, is makeing more money or enjoying life more important? Often the later wins out. Not to say the two can't overlap, simply at some point you have to rationalize to yourself why making more money is important.Lastly, congrats to everyone in this thread who were able to 'live the dream', and gl for everybody else who will take their shot in '09.
Yeah, Cwik makes a good point. Playing poker for a living requires almost 100% focus at all times. Whereas if you are sitting at a desk you probably only concentrate like 50% of the time or less.
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I dont have a graph since I lost my PT3 database and just started with HEM a month ago but overall made just about $18k this year. This includes online cash, sngs, mtts and live cash and small mtts.In the first half of this year I had a pretty good job and poker was just a profitable hobby, but in June I lost my job, and instead of looking for another one I decided that I would give it a shot and go for the dream. I promised my wife I'd cash out the the equivalent of my paycheck every 2 weeks and if I ever couldn't do that I'd look for a job. I started with an very small bankroll...smaller than any sane person would attempt to "go pro" with and I half expected to be looking for a job within a couple weeks, but I've made it until the end of the year and right now bankrollwise I'm in the most comfortable position that I've been in since I made that decision.It's definitely been rough at times. Several times I had to cash out almost my entire bankroll to meet my obligations, and several times I've turned almost nothing into a lot in a very short time only to repeat the process and cash most of it out again. Of course I wasn't able to balance on the edge of the cliff the entire time and in September the inevitable downswing happened and I wasn't able to cash out. It was a rough time...but I couldn't look for a job because we had already scheduled a vacation to see my parents in Maine (whom I hadn't seen in 2 years) in October. I planned to look for a job when we got back, but the time off did me good and I started winning again almost immediately. In the last 3 months I have been able to make/cash out what I needed, never really getting ahead though...until this last week of the year.In the past week I've made a little over $4k ($3k from 2 4 figure tourney scores on back to back days, and the rest from lhe cash). So right now I'm in the unfamiliar position of having a few thousand in my account and not needing to cash out for a while. I'm so used to having a deadline of like 2 weeks or less to turn like $200 into $1500 or $2000. So with this new found time and money I plan to take advantage and make a lot more, and make my life a lot less stressful. I hope to God I never have to cash out a majority of my bankroll again just to meet my monthly nut.

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If I'm underrolled, would playing .05/.10 on FTP with 40 bbs instead of 100 bbs be a good idea?
This is a post I made from the challenge thread six months ago. I started the year with no money and I got started with real money in April with a 20 dollar transfer from a friend at Full Tilt, rakeback, and a dream (jk about the last part). I initially grinded sngs until I figured those were a waste of time and I decided to take a shot at 10nl in like June I guess. I grinded that for maybe a month or so and got a decent amount of rakeback so I could move up to 25nl. Since then, I have moved up to 50nl and have had back to back 2k months which is really nice money for a college grinder. The road hasn't been all smooth however, as I can remember multiple days where I almost tilted off my roll by taking shots at MSNL, I think I had like multiple -500 and more days when I was playing at 25nl where I played like 2/4 on tilt. Those days set by progress back a ton and I've learned that bankroll management is one of the most important things in playing poker and tilt control is another tremendously important aspect of playing poker seriously. Cheers, and gl to everyone in 2009. year.jpgPlus, probably 3k in rakeback/bonuses
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Alright here's my lame graph now that I'm done. I spent the first 8 months or so working/whining/quitting poker, this is since I started getting backed again in September2008.png

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Yeah, Cwik makes a good point. Playing poker for a living requires almost 100% focus at all times. Whereas if you are sitting at a desk you probably only concentrate like 50% of the time or less.
I think this was my point that I was trying to make that I did not. Obviously when I do play poker it for entertainment first and if I make money at, that is a bonus. But if I were to sit down 5-6 days a week I think it would be very tiresome. I think you guys have explained that the time I was equating to the volume of hands played was not correct. I still could not imagine playing a million hands in a year. I have been playing since I was 13 and I am no where close to that many hands over my life, and I used to play 3-5 nights a week (live). When you put that kind of volume in Rdog, are you really just being a bot playing ABC? Especially 8-12 tables, you cannot possibly be picking up tells or betting patterns on people like that.
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These results are incredible guys and it has given me motivation to really work on my game in 2009. For 2008 I only played a lot (for me) during the first three months and the last two months of '08 and probably made around $1500. I am currently playing $25NL and hope to be at the $100NL level in the next three months.Also in addition to increasing the bankroll during the coming year I am making my NY resolution to read and contribute to the strategy forums on FCP. Best of luck to all in '09.JoeyFinngars

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My 2008 results.Poker winnings:Probably down about $400 for the year.Life winnings:Much more than my losses in poker. Between my family, work and all you knuckleheads who continue to crack me up, I'm way ahead of the game.Best of luck to all of you in 2009.GO FCP!

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Made about 10k, 4k from sngs the rest from mtts. Not nearly what I wanted to reach but Im satisfied with it considering the low volume I put in. 2009 is gonna be dif

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