3 Way Action Against Shorties With Jj On Paired Board

[Moneyball16 0]

UTG is a 50/6 player over like 90 hands. MP1 is unknown.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP2 ($1112)Moneyball (MP3) ($1000)CO ($185)Button ($1000)SB ($980)BB ($458)UTG ($243.90)UTG+1 ($617)MP1 ($697)Preflop: Moneyball is MP3 with J , J :club:UTG calls $10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $10, 1 fold, Moneyball raises to $55, 4 folds, UTG calls $45, MP1 calls $45Flop: ($180) 3 , 7 , 7 (3 players)UTG bets $188.90 (All-In), MP1 calls $188.90, Moneyball calls $188.90?I'm not really worried at all about UTG here, its possible he has me beat but not probable and hes probably drawing to a couple outs. Now do I have MP1 beat enough to make calling correct. His preflop play is often a low PP and if he has just a bare pocket pair I have him beat pretty much always, but this doesn't always call the flop with me behind. He could also have something like 87s or 76s though. MP1 has about 450 left. Would it make you less likely or more likely to call if he repushed on the flop?Also I think if I decide to continue calling is alot better than repushing myself because our hands value is very static(he are either drawing very slim or hes drawing very slim) and I might be able to make a good fold later. But if you think pushing is better please speak up.

[mentallyretardedpear 0]

UTG is a 50/6 player over like 90 hands. MP1 is unknown.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP2 ($1112)Moneyball (MP3) ($1000)CO ($185)Button ($1000)SB ($980)BB ($458)UTG ($243.90)UTG+1 ($617)MP1 ($697)Preflop: Moneyball is MP3 with J , J :club:UTG calls $10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $10, 1 fold, Moneyball raises to $55, 4 folds, UTG calls $45, MP1 calls $45Flop: ($180) 3 , 7 , 7 (3 players)UTG bets $188.90 (All-In), MP1 calls $188.90, Moneyball calls $188.90?I'm not really worried at all about UTG here, its possible he has me beat but not probable and hes probably drawing to a couple outs. Now do I have MP1 beat enough to make calling correct. His preflop play is often a low PP and if he has just a bare pocket pair I have him beat pretty much always, but this doesn't always call the flop with me behind. He could also have something like 87s or 76s though. MP1 has about 450 left. Would it make you less likely or more likely to call if he repushed on the flop?Also I think if I decide to continue calling is alot better than repushing myself because our hands value is very static(he are either drawing very slim or hes drawing very slim) and I might be able to make a good fold later. But if you think pushing is better please speak up.

such a gross spot but I shove most of the time here. mp 1 shows up with pp's so much i try and get value outa them. I think your ahead enough times here to shove and thats what it comes down to

[Acid_Knight 2]

I just shove the flop. His calling range is pretty wide because UTG's calling range is wide. Occasionally he'll have 33 or 7x, but he's also gonna have other random pocket pairs here too.If you're calling, you should shove to protect your hand I think and since if he called, he's not folding usually.

[NoBBiR 0]

I agree shoving flop. Even if UTG has you beat, Mp1 usually doesn't and will call a shove with 88-TT, or possibly a 3?

[mtdesmoines 3]

UTG is a 50/6 player over like 90 hands. MP1 is unknown.PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comMP2 ($1112)Moneyball (MP3) ($1000)CO ($185)Button ($1000)SB ($980)BB ($458)UTG ($243.90)UTG+1 ($617)MP1 ($697)Preflop: Moneyball is MP3 with J , J :club:UTG calls $10, 1 fold, MP1 calls $10, 1 fold, Moneyball raises to $55, 4 folds, UTG calls $45, MP1 calls $45Flop: ($180) 3 , 7 , 7 (3 players)UTG bets $188.90 (All-In), MP1 calls $188.90, Moneyball calls $188.90?I'm not really worried at all about UTG here, its possible he has me beat but not probable and hes probably drawing to a couple outs. Now do I have MP1 beat enough to make calling correct. His preflop play is often a low PP and if he has just a bare pocket pair I have him beat pretty much always, but this doesn't always call the flop with me behind. He could also have something like 87s or 76s though. MP1 has about 450 left. Would it make you less likely or more likely to call if he repushed on the flop?Also I think if I decide to continue calling is alot better than repushing myself because our hands value is very static(he are either drawing very slim or hes drawing very slim) and I might be able to make a good fold later. But if you think pushing is better please speak up.

I think the weird dynamic of the shortie in the hand is messing up everyone's play here. I think you're right about MP1's range -- you're ahead a great deal of the time. Pot/stack sizes dictate that there's really no room left for post flop play. Shoving is probably the right play. I think it turns our hand over as TT - QQ though and allows the villain to play correctly vs. us.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I have to say I support shoving, but I think it's really close. If MP1 was deeper it's definitely just a call. I support shoving because c/f a turn that's under a J is really weak, but I feel like MP1 is almost always shoving the turn on any card under a J, and maybe shoving an A as well.

[Zach6668 513]

I just shove the flop. His calling range is pretty wide because UTG's calling range is wide. Occasionally he'll have 33 or 7x, but he's also gonna have other random pocket pairs here too.If you're calling, you should shove to protect your hand I think and since if he called, he's not folding usually.

Against what?

[LJB723 0]

Against what?

AK, AQ maybe even KQ. It's such a crappy board these hands might not fold knowing they will get to see 2 more cards. AK might even believe its the best hand and probably assumes hero will fold with a bet/call in front. But if hero shoves these hands are now forced to fold. No?

[Zach6668 513]

AK, AQ maybe even KQ. It's such a crappy board these hands might not fold knowing they will get to see 2 more cards. AK might even believe its the best hand and probably assumes hero will fold with a bet/call in front. But if hero shoves these hands are now forced to fold. No?

Do we want AK to fold?

[krup24 0]

Do we want AK to fold?

no but we want to shove to give them the incorrect odds to call

[Zach6668 513]

no but we want to shove to give them the incorrect odds to call

This I agree with. :DI was actually sorta asking, because there is a pot size where we do want their 6-outs to fold, and this pot is pretty big.Something to think about, I'm sorta far too lazy to do the math myself right now.

[Giggidy 0]

Why shove? We most likely fold out hands we want in that we dominate, lower pocket pairs etc.88-TT may call, but we miss value from all the others that we're crushing.If you're MP1 and you are in his spot, with someone left behind, are you really flatting with an unpaired over/paint type hand?..

[Zach6668 513]

If you're MP1 and you are in his spot, with someone left behind, are you really flatting with an unpaired over/paint type hand?..

I certainly wouldn't, but that doesn't necessarily mean a donk wouldn't. Heh.The way MP1 played his hand, he almost never has AK or AQ here, anyways.If he is flatting with JT or QJ or something retarded, then good for him. The only hand with outs against us that makes sense is KQ.Fwiw, if I blacked out and somehow played AK like him, and UTG shoved this board and I thought he was full of shit, I'd shove my AK to isolate him, assuming we think the other guy can fold 8s or Js or something, I dunno. I hate non-HU, lol.Either way, dude's got KQ or no outs here like every time we're ahead, so I don't really see why shoving is all that good. He, of course, can have 7x or hands that beat us, as well.

[antistuff 0]

This I agree with. I was actually sorta asking, because there is a pot size where we do want their 6-outs to fold, and this pot is pretty big.Something to think about, I'm sorta far too lazy to do the math myself right now.

with only 450 left to go i suspect its getting pretty close.

[David_Nicoson 1]

The villain would be making a mistake by calling with AK or similar.243.9 UTG243.9 MP1 243.9 Moneyball call463.1 Moneyball raise1194.8 Pot453.1 to call 2.6 : 1 Pot Odds offered to MP1 Odds against villain improving are 3:1.