What Is The Correct Ruling?

[Seattleallstar 0]

This hand took place during a tournament. If there is anymore information i am leaving out that will help, let me know. Thank you guys.player a and player b were heads up...Flop was K 9 3player B went all in...player A showed placed his cards on the table face up 33 (giving him bottom set)...the dealer immediately picked up the cards and declared player A hand dead, just as player A was pushing his chips in...big commotion...Player A was saying it's not dead coz it's face up (backed up by respected name big shot player who was watching the action while playing on the next table, like it matters but for some reason other people see that it pertains to the situation at hand so ill throw it in too)...player B of course wanted the hand declared deadFloor was called and after hearing the dealer's explanation. Floor declared the hand live but gave player A, an one round penalty...player B had K9 for top two pair... the board bricked out and player A won the hand, doubling up in the process...Things of note...as my understanding of this situation, player A made no verbal declaration or a phsyical one (such as pushing in his chips) before flipping over his cards.

[Seattleallstar 0]

this is what i think and how i responded. the white guy is player B. In case you are wondering this took place in a card room in AsiaHere's my take on it and my experience here. If he verbally declared a call and he then exposed his cards that is just ok. But if he just flipped up his cards it can be declared as dead, because as no verbal declaration of what the action was and no physical action as in pushing of the chips was done. It was just the flipping of the cards, what if when he flipped up his 33 and the white guy showed 99?? He could of easily said well cards are in the muck and end of story. The white guy can go was that a call or a fold, and because he exposed his cards before a clear understanding of what action took place. The white guy basically got f@#ked on both ends and was in a no win situation. His k9 was dominated to a set, and his set if it was a set, can be argued it was a dead hand cause we all know his holdings. Where's the fairness in that? Whats the ruling then? Would you still have other people backing up his story he called and making it stand as a call? Thats why the rule is in place in tournaments, and in a more flexible way in cash games. It could of been another way of angling/angleshooting. Lets be fair here and cut the bullS@#t, if the white guy showed the 99 or KK we sure as hell wouldnt be talking about this issue.

[Seattleallstar 0]

the cards were also placed in the muck by dealer, then pulled out again once floor was called. If this matters

[antistuff 0]

i think different places have different rules about this. imo its total bs and you should be allowed to flip your cards over before deciding what to do in a HU pot.

[NoSup4U 0]

I rule that OP should have been banned years ago.Mark

[looshle 6]

hands not dead, it's a penalty

[Seattleallstar 0]

I rule that OP should have been banned years ago.Mark

geez you act like I did something to you, I wasn't the one who over played 10-10 against your KJ shove at the final table of a WSOP event

[FourFlusher 0]

Seems like an angle shoot...if like the OP said the other guy flipped 99 to beat his set could he just fold?

[BaseJester 1]

if like the OP said the other guy flipped 99 to beat his set could he just fold?

Yes. The lesson here is for the person with the 99 is don't expose your cards until the other player has clearly acted. That said, a declaration of "I am NOT folding." is gentlemanly.

[psujohn 0]

The rule from the Robert's Rules is:

Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.

So the floor ruled correctly.As for the "what if" the guy who shoved turned up his hand before the chips went in. Well I'd give the floor some flexibility here and force a call in most instances. I think it's pretty clear that the guy w/bottom set intended a call and if his action (flipping up his cards) causes the other guy to react then you can force the guy with bottom set to call.BTW, 99.9% of the time you don't kill a hand. You may penalize the player after but it's almost never correct to kill the hand.

[Jeepster80125 0]

I rule that OP should have been banned years ago.Mark

[donk4life 34]

geez you act like I did something to you, I wasn't the one who over played 10-10 against your KJ shove at the final table of a WSOP event

And you've made a FT table at a WSOP event?

[vbnautilus 48]

The rule from the Robert's Rules is:So the floor ruled correctly.As for the "what if" the guy who shoved turned up his hand before the chips went in. Well I'd give the floor some flexibility here and force a call in most instances. I think it's pretty clear that the guy w/bottom set intended a call and if his action (flipping up his cards) causes the other guy to react then you can force the guy with bottom set to call.BTW, 99.9% of the time you don't kill a hand. You may penalize the player after but it's almost never correct to kill the hand.

It's a tournament. Robert's rules not appropriate for this situation. Rules on exposing cards in tournaments are stricter due to the possibility of chip dumping/collusion. I think the rule on this one is going to vary by location. Wasn't Daniel on a crusade a while back to get this to be allowed in the wsop but failed?

[Potomophobia 17]

Settle it in the parking lot.

[GetSprung 0]

hands not dead, it's a penalty

100% correct except for the dealer pretty much ****ed up. Some places would keep the hand dead because the dealer put the cards in the muck. Some houses don't care about the muck being a dead hand. In this instance the hand is live and the player will incur a penalty. It sounds like a big misunderstanding that you see at least once in every live tournament by an amateur. Doesn't sound like an angleshoot at all.