Showdown Rule

[GetSprung 0]

World Series repeat brought up this "discussion" to which I need proof of the answer. 2 players checked the river and one player open farrelled before the other had to show his hand. The dealer then forced the 2nd player to show his hand to receive the pot. In all my experience I was informed that you are allowed to muck as long as the other player mucks. My co-worker claims that this was a WSOP rule which apparently wasn't implemented the year before when I dealt. If anyone can find proof of this rule either way I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[GWCGWC 83]

It's a pretty common rule in live mtt's. I can't help you with a link to the official wsop rules but it's there to help prevent chip dumping.

[psujohn 0]

It's a pretty common rule in live mtt's. I can't help you with a link to the official wsop rules but it's there to help prevent chip dumping.

I think you're misapplying a different rule. If there's an all-in and a call both in an MTT both hands need to be tabled. The situation that Sprung is talking about isn't an all-in.I think the standard in most casinos is that the last live hand wins the pot whether it's turned over or not. So in this case they 2nd hand would not need to be turned over. If you remember the argument between Bobby Belande and Hellmuth on PAD it was over this exact situation. Non-all-in at showdown Phil is first to act and says "You got it" Bobby says "Muck your hand". Phil goes off on Bobby having bad etiquette because he should just flip over his hand. Bobby says "I don't want to flip over my hand. If you're conceding then much your hand and I'll rake the pot and muck my hand." So at the very least Bobby believes that the rule here is that he won't have to table his hand.However ......At the Borgata I had a situation in a cash game no less where I called a river bet HU and the other guy mucked. Another player made the comment that I don't need to turn over my hand. The dealer said I did and had it verified by the floor. This is actually a consistent ruling at Borgata that I've seen reported elsewhere. It's also a really stupid rule that differs enough from common practice that it gets comments on forums.

[vbnautilus 48]

These are the rules from 08:http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/pdfs/wso...nt-rules.08.pdfNothing about the situation you refer to in there though. Detailed rules are apparently in the "Live Action Poker Manual" that they have on site but isn't published anywhere.

[pauld22 0]

Here is a link to Robert's RulesWhich states:

THE SHOWDOWN1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards face up on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

Not sure if that is that the WSOP uses but from what I understand it is a pretty widely accepted set of rules.Hope that helps.

[psujohn 0]

I think this part of Roberts rules is more applicable:

A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot.

By my reading this means that a player is allowed to "fold" at showdown and therefore the only player with a live hand would automatically win the hand. Oddly enough the "reason" I was given at Borgata was "for the cameras" which is completely retarded since any two cards you turn over at that point win. If the camera can see that I'm the only one with live cards that should be plenty. Besides they don't make you turn over your cards if you bet on the turn and your opponent folds.

[cubsfan44 0]

What if the other player mucks his cards too?? Then who would take the pot? Seems like a retarded rule if it is indeed a rule

[PMJackson21 0]

I think you're misapplying a different rule. If there's an all-in and a call both in an MTT both hands need to be tabled. The situation that Sprung is talking about isn't an all-in.I think the standard in most casinos is that the last live hand wins the pot whether it's turned over or not. So in this case they 2nd hand would not need to be turned over. If you remember the argument between Bobby Belande and Hellmuth on PAD it was over this exact situation. Non-all-in at showdown Phil is first to act and says "You got it" Bobby says "Muck your hand". Phil goes off on Bobby having bad etiquette because he should just flip over his hand. Bobby says "I don't want to flip over my hand. If you're conceding then much your hand and I'll rake the pot and muck my hand." So at the very least Bobby believes that the rule here is that he won't have to table his hand.However ......At the Borgata I had a situation in a cash game no less where I called a river bet HU and the other guy mucked. Another player made the comment that I don't need to turn over my hand. The dealer said I did and had it verified by the floor. This is actually a consistent ruling at Borgata that I've seen reported elsewhere. It's also a really stupid rule that differs enough from common practice that it gets comments on forums.

Lol this comes up so often, I can never recall what the forum decides is the right answer. From now on I'm just going to wait and see what you post, iirc you always had the right answer.

[psujohn 0]

I'm such a rules nit that I actually study up on rules and read rulings and floor people discussing rulings and such even though I never have and likely never will work in a cardroom.Sad, I know.

[GetSprung 0]

Here is a link to Robert's RulesWhich states:Not sure if that is that the WSOP uses but from what I understand it is a pretty widely accepted set of rules.Hope that helps.

Alright now that my co-worker is gone I can officially call him an idiot. He basically claimed that if someone mucked a hand in a checked down river he'd turn over the other players cards. There is no way a floorman would allow for that. When I dealt at the series this rule was not in effect and I checked the 2008 rules and there was nothing about it in the rules. I know house rules are all different but most houses wouldn't have a specific rule regarding this. Ridiculous debate with someone who obviously had no idea what he was talking about. He got so angry I thought I might be wrong but apparently he just has anger management issues. Thanks guys.

[PMJackson21 0]

I'm such a rules nit that I actually study up on rules and read rulings and floor people discussing rulings and such even though I never have and likely never will work in a cardroom.Sad, I know.

Don't you work as a floor though? Or am I confused. Either way, like my hero Duke used to say, 'Knowing is half the battle!'

[GWCGWC 83]

Alright now that my co-worker is gone I can officially call him an idiot. He basically claimed that if someone mucked a hand in a checked down river he'd turn over the other players cards. There is no way a floorman would allow for that. When I dealt at the series this rule was not in effect and I checked the 2008 rules and there was nothing about it in the rules. I know house rules are all different but most houses wouldn't have a specific rule regarding this. Ridiculous debate with someone who obviously had no idea what he was talking about. He got so angry I thought I might be wrong but apparently he just has anger management issues. Thanks guys.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. butI'm 100% certain about this in NLH tourneys at the wsop and other Harrah's properties in Vegas. When it goes to showdown and one player mucks their hand, the other player can't just muck and get the pot. They have to table the hand.

[GetSprung 0]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question. butI'm 100% certain about this in NLH tourneys at the wsop and other Harrah's properties in Vegas. When it goes to showdown and one player mucks their hand, the other player can't just muck and get the pot. They have to table the hand.

I wouldn't go this far. I think you're confusing this with an all-in situation in which both hands would need to be flipped up. If one player open mucks at showdown you do not need to expose your hand for the win. There would only be one live hand and therefore it would be awarded the pot. I know in 2007 the rule was written this way I'm just unsure if it was changed in 08. I've also had this come up at Caesar's and I took the pot down without showing a few times.

[GWCGWC 83]

I wouldn't go this far. I think you're confusing this with an all-in situation in which both hands would need to be flipped up. If one player open mucks at showdown you do not need to expose your hand for the win. There would only be one live hand and therefore it would be awarded the pot. I know in 2007 the rule was written this way I'm just unsure if it was changed in 08. I've also had this come up at Caesar's and I took the pot down without showing a few times.

Then the dealer was unaware of the rule or just didn't enforce it. I'm saying in a NL tourney at the wsop and all Harrah's Vegas properties:HU at the river. player A is first to actPlayer A bets player B callsPlayer A is supposed to show first but instead just mucksplayer B has to show This does not apply to cash games which is what Roberts Rules are addressing.

[GetSprung 0]

Then the dealer was unaware of the rule or just didn't enforce it. I'm saying in a NL tourney at the wsop and all Harrah's Vegas properties:HU at the river. player A is first to actPlayer A bets player B callsPlayer A is supposed to show first but instead just mucksplayer B has to show This does not apply to cash games which is what Roberts Rules are addressing.

Where are you seeing this rule? I'm trying to say that I actually dealt the World Series and at no time during the orientation was this rule mentioned and when it happened there was no clarification that we were supposed to show the hand. My prior knowledge from dealing was that in a tournament you could recieve a pot without showdown in this situation.

[GWCGWC 83]

Where are you seeing this rule? I'm trying to say that I actually dealt the World Series and at no time during the orientation was this rule mentioned and when it happened there was no clarification that we were supposed to show the hand. My prior knowledge from dealing was that in a tournament you could recieve a pot without showdown in this situation.

It was enforced many times where I was the one who had to show. The first time it happened to me, I mucked and the dealer actually turned over my hand. After a short explanation by the dealer, I had her call the floor who explained the rule. I was close to tilting. This was at the Rio last year in a wsop ME sat and many times at Caesar's since then. Like, a lot. The Venetian also has adopted this rule. If something's changed, I don't know about it. I was in Vegas almost 3 weeks in November and the rule was still in place. It's to prevent chip dumping.

[BaseJester 1]

It's to prevent chip dumping.

Wouldn't you want to see the other hand, too, for that purpose?Not challenging your observation at all, by the way.

[GWCGWC 83]

Wouldn't you want to see the other hand, too, for that purpose?Not challenging your observation at all, by the way.

I know right?! I guess if player B called and showed 8 high it would be suspicious. Here's the rub, if they were chip dumping, player B would raise and player A would muck. Then no one would have to show and they would have successfully chip dumped. I pointed this out to the floor and he just said it's the rule. I was so close to tilting since I'd never had a dealer purposely expose my hand.

[chrozzo 19]

false!

[TrueFX 0]

I know right?! I guess if player B called and showed 8 high it would be suspicious. Here's the rub, if they were chip dumping, player B would raise and player A would muck. Then no one would have to show and they would have successfully chip dumped. I pointed this out to the floor and he just said it's the rule. I was so close to tilting since I'd never had a dealer purposely expose my hand.

I am fairly sure the rule is in effect to prevent chip dumping, and collusion.If there were a third player in the pot at some point that was raised out by two people who then check it down to the river, I might be suspicious. I personally see this a lot in cash games where the locals will be aggressive as all hell while a fish or new comer is in the pot, then check it down once he has abondoned his chips.And the table can always ask to see the cards at showdown even if it is not an all in situation. Again, to prevent the collusion.

[mtdesmoines 3]

At the Borgata I had a situation in a cash game no less where I called a river bet HU and the other guy mucked. Another player made the comment that I don't need to turn over my hand. The dealer said I did and had it verified by the floor. This is actually a consistent ruling at Borgata that I've seen reported elsewhere. It's also a really stupid rule that differs enough from common practice that it gets comments on forums.

You must table a live hand to claim the pot. Even if you are playing the board, if you have the last live hand, it's your pot.

[Suited_Up 2]

Isn't the rule for collusion that if someone requests to see a showdown hand, then the dealer has to show it?That rule still applies here. If you want to prevent collusion, then ask to see it.But if nobody asks, I don't think you need to show them. Whether some retarded floorperson said so or not.

[GetSprung 0]

You must table a live hand to claim the pot. Even if you are playing the board, if you have the last live hand, it's your pot.

I'm still going to go with what I have been taught/told by several different poker room managers/floormen. You do NOT need to table a hand if a player mucks in front of you to be awarded the pot.

Isn't the rule for collusion that if someone requests to see a showdown hand, then the dealer has to show it?That rule still applies here. If you want to prevent collusion, then ask to see it.But if nobody asks, I don't think you need to show them. Whether some retarded floorperson said so or not.

100% if the hand is requested to be seen then the dealer must show it. If the winning hand is turned over and a player requests to see the losing hand the dealer must tap the losing hand on the muck in order to kill it and then it can be shown. This is the clear rule that is in effect to prevent collusion in a checked down pot.

[Suited_Up 2]

I'm still going to go with what I have been taught/told by several different poker room managers/floormen. You do NOT need to table a hand if a player mucks in front of you to be awarded the pot.100% if the hand is requested to be seen then the dealer must show it. If the winning hand is turned over and a player requests to see the losing hand the dealer must tap the losing hand on the muck in order to kill it and then it can be shown. This is the clear rule that is in effect to prevent collusion in a checked down pot.

Yep, which is why it seems kind of redundant to have 2 different rules to prevent collusion. So I think you're right on this one.