Vb On The Neuroscience Of Poker, Part 1

[vbnautilus 48]

In light of steve7stud’s call for more content on the forum, and in the spirit of his series on pros he knows personally, I thought about what the best thing is I could contribute myself. As many of you know, I do research in the field of cognitive neuroscience, which strives to understand how the cognitive functions of the mind are performed by the brain. There are many things neuroscientists have studied that are related to poker: decision-making, emotional control, social interaction, etc. To excel in poker, we have to understand ourselves, and that’s basically what cognitive neuroscience is all about. So what I decided to do is to start a series of writings on topics in neuroscience that will be interesting and of use to poker players. In live poker, one of our greatest sources of information comes from the body language of the other players. How our brains understand body language is an active area of research and one that I have been personally involved in, which is why I’ve chosen it for my first topic of interest. Neuropoker Part One: Mirror neurons and body languageOne of the keys to understanding the brain’s way of reading people came from a discovery in Italy in the late 1990’s. Researchers there were recording from neurons in the brains of living monkeys. These monkeys have sensors implanted in their cerebral cortex, but they are awake, alive, and healthy. Now the part of the brain that controls the movements of the body is pretty well understood – neurons in the “motor cortex” of the brain are connected to other neurons which traverse the body and make contact with the muscles. When a neuron in one part of the motor cortex fires, you will see a muscle twitch. Other parts of the motor cortex contain neurons which organize together various muscle contractions to perform a movement (this is called “premotor cortex”). This is the area where the Italian researchers had their electrodes. For instance, when the monkey reaches out to grab a peanut, a specific set of neurons become activated. Yes, monkeys in Italy eat peanuts, only the peanuts have tomato sauce on them (sorry qyayqi). Typically what is done is to hook the output of the sensors up to a speaker so that the electrical impulses in the neurons are converted to sounds. When the monkey reaches for the peanut, and the neurons fire, you hear “brrrrrrrrrp”. No surprises there; these are motor neurons, that’s what they do. The key discovery came by accident, as is often the case in science. With the electrode still in motor cortex, the monkey happened to see one of the researchers picking up the peanut himself. “brrrrrrrp”. Now this is a surprise, because these are motor neurons -- they are not supposed to care what the monkey sees. As it turns out, a certain percentage of neurons in the motor cortex respond not only when the animal performs an action, but also when he sees someone else perform the same action. They became known as “mirror neurons” since it as if the motor cortex is mirroring what it sees in the world. We now have plenty of evidence from neuroimaging that the same mechanism is at work in the human brain. When we see someone else do something, our own motor programs for doing that same thing become activated. This is known as the simulation theory, that we understand other people by simulating what they are doing inside ourselves. It is likely the basis for why imitation is so ubiquitous in humans, and can help explain why certain movements become contagious. Have you ever noticed how people often unconsciously imitate each other’s body positions while engaged in conversation? It’s no surprise once you realize that I can invoke motor programs in your brain when you see me doing something. The same system seems to be important for understanding the emotions of other people. When we see an angry face for example, we unconsciously simulate making that same face ourselves, and thereby evoke all of the emotions associated with making those movements. We also have evidence now that people who are more empathetic have greater mirror neuron activity when watching others. The corollary to this is that moving in unison with other people increases collective empathy as you strengthen the associations between movement and simulations. Think about the purpose behind having an army troop practice synchronized marching… Incidentally, the phrase “body language” turns out to be a pretty good one as one of the main brain regions found to contain mirror neurons in humans is an area that we know is important for language. It’s called “Broca’s area” after Paul Broca who found that damage here leads to speech disturbance. It may be that language evolved out of a system for understanding gestures and actions. Coming back to poker. If the key to understanding other people is simulation, then we may be able to read more off of over people by more fully engaging in this simulation. I tend to think the focus in poker on “tells”, specific things to look for in someone’s behavior, is a bit of a red herring. It seems to me that what is important is being entirely open to doing what the person is doing with their face, body, posture etc (either overly or covertly), and then reading off of yourself how that makes you feel. Becoming aware of this simulation process may also help us to do it better. I hope some of this was interesting and I’d be happy to answer any questions about it. I’d also be interested in hearing if some of our expert live poker tell-readers have anything to say about the issue. And yes, I know, tl/dr.

[HighwayStar 8]

totally copy and pasted..*Reading with interest*

[RDog 0]

So are you saying that by simulating what someone's body language is and determining how that makes us feel, that gives us a better idea if they are strong or weak (based on if it makes us feel strong or weak)?

[vbnautilus 48]

So are you saying that by simulating what someone's body language is and determining how that makes us feel, that gives us a better idea if they are strong or weak?

Yes. But when you say something using lots and lots of words it seems more right.

[RDog 0]

Yes. But when you say it using lots and lots of words it seems more right.

LOL, no, it was definitely an interesting read but I just wanted to make sure I understood what exactly the conclusion was. It makes complete sense. Plus monkey stories are always good.

[NoSup4U 0]

<3 monkeys eating peanuts.A+ also for content.Mark

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

In light of steve7stud’s call for more content on the forum, and in the spirit of his series on pros he knows personally, I thought about what the best thing is I could contribute myself. As many of you know, I do research in the field of cognitive neuroscience, which strives to understand how the cognitive functions of the mind are performed by the brain. There are many things neuroscientists have studied that are related to poker: decision-making, emotional control, social interaction, etc. To excel in poker, we have to understand ourselves, and that’s basically what cognitive neuroscience is all about. So what I decided to do is to start a series of writings on topics in neuroscience that will be interesting and of use to poker players. In live poker, one of our greatest sources of information comes from the body language of the other players. How our brains understand body language is an active area of research and one that I have been personally involved in, which is why I’ve chosen it for my first topic of interest. Neuropoker Part One: Mirror neurons and body languageOne of the keys to understanding the brain’s way of reading people came from a discovery in Italy in the late 1990’s. Researchers there were recording from neurons in the brains of living monkeys. These monkeys have sensors implanted in their cerebral cortex, but they are awake, alive, and healthy. Now the part of the brain that controls the movements of the body is pretty well understood – neurons in the “motor cortex” of the brain are connected to other neurons which traverse the body and make contact with the muscles. When a neuron in one part of the motor cortex fires, you will see a muscle twitch. Other parts of the motor cortex contain neurons which organize together various muscle contractions to perform a movement (this is called “premotor cortex”). This is the area where the Italian researchers had their electrodes. For instance, when the monkey reaches out to grab a peanut, a specific set of neurons become activated. Yes, monkeys in Italy eat peanuts, only the peanuts have tomato sauce on them (sorry qyayqi). Typically what is done is to hook the output of the sensors up to a speaker so that the electrical impulses in the neurons are converted to sounds. When the monkey reaches for the peanut, and the neurons fire, you hear “brrrrrrrrrp”. No surprises there; these are motor neurons, that’s what they do. The key discovery came by accident, as is often the case in science. With the electrode still in motor cortex, the monkey happened to see one of the researchers picking up the peanut himself. “brrrrrrrp”. Now this is a surprise, because these are motor neurons -- they are not supposed to care what the monkey sees. As it turns out, a certain percentage of neurons in the motor cortex respond not only when the animal performs an action, but also when he sees someone else perform the same action. They became known as “mirror neurons” since it as if the motor cortex is mirroring what it sees in the world. We now have plenty of evidence from neuroimaging that the same mechanism is at work in the human brain. When we see someone else do something, our own motor programs for doing that same thing become activated. This is known as the simulation theory, that we understand other people by simulating what they are doing inside ourselves. It is likely the basis for why imitation is so ubiquitous in humans, and can help explain why certain movements become contagious. Have you ever noticed how people often unconsciously imitate each other’s body positions while engaged in conversation? It’s no surprise once you realize that I can invoke motor programs in your brain when you see me doing something. The same system seems to be important for understanding the emotions of other people. When we see an angry face for example, we unconsciously simulate making that same face ourselves, and thereby evoke all of the emotions associated with making those movements. We also have evidence now that people who are more empathetic have greater mirror neuron activity when watching others. The corollary to this is that moving in unison with other people increases collective empathy as you strengthen the associations between movement and simulations. Think about the purpose behind having an army troop practice synchronized marching… Incidentally, the phrase “body language” turns out to be a pretty good one as one of the main brain regions found to contain mirror neurons in humans is an area that we know is important for language. It’s called “Broca’s area” after Paul Broca who found that damage here leads to speech disturbance. It may be that language evolved out of a system for understanding gestures and actions. Coming back to poker. If the key to understanding other people is simulation, then we may be able to read more off of over people by more fully engaging in this simulation. I tend to think the focus in poker on “tells”, specific things to look for in someone’s behavior, is a bit of a red herring. It seems to me that what is important is being entirely open to doing what the person is doing with their face, body, posture etc (either overly or covertly), and then reading off of yourself how that makes you feel. Becoming aware of this simulation process may also help us to do it better. I hope some of this was interesting and I’d be happy to answer any questions about it. I’d also be interested in hearing if some of our expert live poker tell-readers have anything to say about the issue. And yes, I know, tl/dr.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Holy crap, it works!

[RDog 0]

Holy crap, it works!

Was VB strong or weak?

[vbnautilus 48]

LOL, no, it was definitely an interesting read but I just wanted to make sure I understood what exactly the conclusion was. It makes complete sense. Plus monkey stories are always good.

Did I mention that the monkeys also play poker?

Holy crap, it works!

lol.

[mase_gotsem 0]

Holy crap, it works!

wooosh over my head..

Was VB strong or weak?

until i read this.. nhgood post tl;br "too long but read" interesting post.

[silkyjonson 1]

I actually used to do this alot when I played live, I would see what I was doing in certain situations and then extrapolating it to other players. It works fairly well because most of us do alot of the same things on instinct, its a pretty basic concept that can work to figure out if your oponent is strong/weak.

[qyayqi 11]

I actually used to do this alot when I played live, I would see what I was doing in certain situations and then extrapolating it to other players. It works fairly well because most of us do alot of the same things on instinct, its a pretty basic concept that can work to figure out if your oponent is strong/weak.

i think this is useful, but perhaps backwards to what vb is saying. you are building up a library of actions/reasctions particular to you and then intellectually mapping them onto the other players. the muscle response would be a more visceral reaction that you monitor on the fly.

[gfdsa146 0]

How sensitive are these mirror neurons? You've confirmed that they respond to a blatant action, but are they sensitive enough to pick up the more subtle actions of poker players?

[vbnautilus 48]

i think this is useful, but perhaps backwards to what vb is saying. you are building up a library of actions/reasctions particular to you and then intellectually mapping them onto the other players. the muscle response would be a more visceral reaction that you monitor on the fly.

That's right, he had it backwards. Basically you imagine doing what the other person is doing.

How sensitive are these mirror neurons? You've confirmed that they respond to a blatant action, but are they sensitive enough to pick up the more subtle actions of poker players?

That's a very good question. Although it hasn't been specifically tested, my intuition is that yes they are. How precise they are also depends upon your expertise with the movements in question. For example, you see more mirror neuron activity watching a complex dance if you are also a dancer. So I think familiarity with the movements is key (you have to have the motor programs to map onto), and the movements we see other poker players make while subtle are very familiar.Incidentally, talking with someone about this last night I remembered my porn corollary. I think the simulation theory explains why men like lesbian porn. See, when you are watching porn you are automatically simulating both actors. Say its a blow job scene. You're not only receiving it, you're also giving it on some level, which can cut into the enjoyment ( for many of us). When its two women touching each other, there's no problem experiencing both sides at once.

[RDog 0]

Do I actually have to do this at the table as it is happening or can I do this all at home prior to going to the casino and still have it be applicable in broad terms?

[vbnautilus 48]

Do I actually have to do this at the table as it is happening or can I do this all at home prior to going to the casino and still have it be applicable in broad terms?

The lesbian porn part you should do at home.The imagining doing what your opponent is doing with his body is a way of getting information about his intentions, so I think it would be more useful to do at the table.

[qyayqi 11]

perhaps being open to any empathic tendencies you have in general would fine tune some of this for poker in particular. you need to be open to your response to visual stimuli. in broadest terms, go watch a few guys get kicked in the junk. your muscle memory will be all over that one.

[RDog 0]

The lesbian porn part you should do at home.The imagining doing what your opponent is doing with his body is a way of getting information about his intentions, so I think it would be more useful to do at the table.

I was just saying that if say a very common movement at the table is someone putting one hand on their chin and tapping the table with the other hand, if I spent time at home doing that, would that help at all or does it actually have to be in the moment?

[vbnautilus 48]

I was just saying that if say a very common movement at the table is someone putting one hand on their chin and tapping the table with the other hand, if I spent time at home doing that, would that help at all or does it actually have to be in the moment?

I see. I guess that kind of practice could conceivably help, but the danger is that your memory of the movements won't be precise enough to give you the right idea. For example, putting one hand on the chin while leaning back might mean something different from putting one hand on the chin while leaning forward. If you forget to include that piece of info in your after-the-fact simulation you may reach the wrong conclusion. The simulation happens automatically in the moment, I am just suggesting that we pay more attention to it and remain open to watching all the subtleties of movement so that we can fully engage in the process.

[RDog 0]

I see. I guess that kind of practice could conceivably help, but the danger is that your memory of the movements won't be precise enough to give you the right idea. For example, putting one hand on the chin while leaning back might mean something different from putting one hand on the chin while leaning forward. If you forget to include that piece of info in your after-the-fact simulation you may reach the wrong conclusion. The simulation happens automatically in the moment, I am just suggesting that we pay more attention to it and remain open to watching all the subtleties of movement so that we can fully engage in the process.

Ah, this makes sense.

[vbnautilus 48]

perhaps being open to any empathic tendencies you have in general would fine tune some of this for poker in particular. you need to be open to your response to visual stimuli. in broadest terms, go watch a few guys get kicked in the junk. your muscle memory will be all over that one.

It turns out the simulation theory does extend beyond motor neurons. There are neurons in the anterior cingulate cortex which process pain from our bodies, that are also activated when we see someone else in pain... and the amount depends upon how well we like the person.

[Suited_Up 2]

So do you think you can train yourself to perceive these signals better?

[vbnautilus 48]

So do you think you can train yourself to perceive these signals better?

Absolutely. I just think that the neuroscience suggests that the way to get better is less about consciously learning what different "tells" mean, and more about becoming more open to resonating with other person.

[Suited_Up 2]

Absolutely. I just think that the neuroscience suggests that the way to get better is less about consciously learning what different "tells" mean, and more about becoming more open to resonating with other person.

Mentalism a bit?(Which I've always thought was an interesting concept for poker players)