nl strategy

[Forbidden Void 0]

Heh. I read that article a while back. It's good. But it deals specifically with playing AK in Limit games. I'm not concerned about that here. The issue in this case was in a NL game, where AK is played differently, I think.

[fatmanonguitar 0]

KQ (even suited) is a marginal hand and a dangerous preflop raise from early position. If your opponent came over the top preflop you should have laid them down. He may have simply called because he feared AA. I think your turn bet was dangerous with the board pairing and the fact that your flush draw wasn't even the nut draw.

[Forbidden Void 0]

KQ suited is not a marginal hand.It's a great hand.It's an even better hand if my opponent never sees it.The bet on the turn had nothing to do with what I thought I could make with my hand, but everything to do with thinking that he did not have anything to play with.He CALLED my preflop bet, I have no reason to assume AA or KKI wasn't asking for a critique of my play anyway. If you think my play is bad, feel free to sit at the table with me and let me take your money.I was asking if people who play NL get gunshy with KK. KK is the second most powerful hand in the game. I only raised 3x the BB preflop and he didn't even come back at me.At the flop I bet 2/3 the pot, and he flat calls with 2pr Kings and sixes.The turn comes, and here I can see him just calling, since he has sixes full of kings and he tries to trap.The question is why would a player play KK so timidly preflop and postflop?

[fatmanonguitar 0]

Way to get defensive buddy. If all you want to hear is that your opponent is a moron and that you played the hand well and lost it anyway, then don't post on the forum. I don't think your opponent played the hand perfectly but to answer your question, "Why play KK so timidly pre- and post-flop?" - he might have been worried about YOU having AA, raising in early position.That doesn't change the fact that KQ is definitely a marginal hand and that you had nothing but the second best flush draw on the turn.

[checkraise13 0]

Well first off try not to play in 1/2 NL unless thats all you can afford to play. Try a least 3/6 4/8 5/10 NL and play a little more short stacked. That will help cut down on some of the loose play. I mean in 1/2 of course, I'll see every flop if I only get raised 3 times the big blind with QJ big deal $6 but in a higher limit it tends to be a little tighter play, ...but not always. Which takes me to my next point, your pre-flop raise was too weak. I was playing with Phil Gordon the other night and his theory with AK pre-flop is get yourself heads up whatever it takes. Ususally 6 to 10X the BB if you have it otherwise go all in and let them know your not messing around. He said his goal with AK is to usually steal the blinds. After the flop you had A high with a K kicker, I would bet out half the pot, and really make him wonder if his QJ were any good. At this point he will have to really consider if this race is worth running, Most people on a draw will fold still needing 2 more cards to drop. Remember with a good raise pre-flop followed up by another good stiff bet will really back up that you have a hand and it will let your opponent know it's time to fold. :evil:

[MarionSauce 0]

hey marion wanna play heads up for money. Live. Then ill take you out to dinner. With your money.wow what a guy

I'm pretty sure it'll be your money with the way you play.

[Guest]

There is $32 in the pot pre flop (btw, the raise to $8 will get a lot of callers as there is now $14 in the pot and only $6 for the first player to call and better odds for each subsequent player. With that many limpers, a $15-20 bet is in order), on the flop he bets 4 and you raise to 16. This is less than 50% of the pot, so the purpose of the bet was to get a call, correct? You got the call and the pot now has 64 in it. You bet 16, 25% of the pot. He now calls 16 into a $78 pot, giving him 5:1 to call. Not a great call, but a risky player with cash might do it as the implied odds are strong. The only way to lose less money to these drawing hands in to force them to make bad plays. His play was not great, but with implied odds it was not horrible either. Assuming the guy knows what he is doing, you need to bet more relative to the pot. Your raise on the flop (if you want to win it right there) should have been to $35. Given the $16 raise, you need to assume he is drawing when he just calls. On the turn, with $64 in the pot you need to bet at a minimum 50% of the pot ($32), but probably should go to at least 75% ($50). If you are not willing to do this, than you must accept the suck outs as a part of life!If he still calls and sucks out, then you have to keep playing with him because you will win his money over time!

[Forbidden Void 0]

Way to get defensive buddy. If all you want to hear is that your opponent is a moron and that you played the hand well and lost it anyway, then don't post on the forum. I don't think your opponent played the hand perfectly but to answer your question, "Why play KK so timidly pre- and post-flop?" - he might have been worried about YOU having AA, raising in early position.That doesn't change the fact that KQ is definitely a marginal hand and that you had nothing but the second best flush draw on the turn.

I don't mean to sound defensive. The fact is, I wasn't asking for a critique on my play. 3x BB is a standard raise in early position with even AQ, AK or even JJ. He played the hand weak. Whether or not I played correctly is besides the point. I just want to know if this is a common occurrence in NL. I play limit regularly and if you let KK go by preflop without trying to cap the bet, you're missing out on profit. Maybe NL players don't think like I do when they play cash games. This game was fairly loose to begin with, and raises like I made were common. He had no reason to think I might have had AA, unless he were gunshy with the kings. That was my question. Do people stop power playing kings because they get overly afraid that their opponent might have aces? Could someone please answer the question instead of critiquing the hand.

[fatmanonguitar 0]

I can't speak for other people.I don't fear the nuts or a bad beat whenever I have a strong hand and I generally play KK strong. That being said, the one situation I play them cautiously is with an early position raise. While you could have made that raise with other hands, you could also have AA which would likely take ALL of my money if I am not careful with my KK. If I was your opponent, I would have tested you with a reraise preflop. If you call, my KK are golden, if you push all-in, I fold. This is very different than in limit holdem. While a lot of players will scoff at this tight play, you have to realize that recognizing that you got KK at the worst possible time and parting with the hand will save you money.I am still unsure if you recognize what a marginal hand is. It is a hand you are liable to get trapped with and lose a big pot to a better kicker or dominating hand. KQ is one of these hands. In late position, with no one opening the pot, it's a monster. Where you were sitting it is marginal. Clearly 67suited is a worse starting hand that KQsuited but it is easy to get away from if you don't flop to it. Any hand that can be second best even if you "hit" the flop is marginal. More people go broke with A10suited and JJ, than with 33 or 89.

[Forbidden Void 0]

I is a marginal hand in that regard, yes. I don't think however, with what I picked up from this guy, that it was. I think that based on how he was betting, I made as good a decision as I could. And I agree with the bit about A10.I haven't played A10 in months, just because it has too much of a chance of coming out second best at the end of the hand.JJ I play, but cop out early if I see a nasty flop, which is pretty much any over card. Perhaps this guy just had a great read on me, and thought he could keep me in the hand if he didn't bet at me.I don't know.NL is exciting for me, but new. My only experience with NL has been in tournament play. And while I have been successful with that, it seems like there are huge strategy differences between tournament play and cash play. I have a lot to learn about betting strategy in this game. Is raising three times the blind from early position really that big an indicator of strength?

[fatmanonguitar 0]

I don't think the size of the raise should be indicative of strength, otherwise you are giving information away. The fact that you raised at all from EP is a sign of strength. IMO you should either have a standard raise (i.e., 3-4x the BB) for all raising hands, or mix up your raise amounts randomly.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

Sweetheart you dont know how i play yetlet me know if you wanna find out

[hexag1 0]

AK is a drawing hand when played from late position in a multiway pot.If you play it from early position [like in the BB] you should probably bring it in for a BIG raise or no raise at all. $4 from a $2 BB is not enough. $6-8 would be better. if you flop to it, you should strongly value bet it. you were saying that $8 was too much and you didnt want to scare away action. but thers already 3BB in there.. so what if you raise and get no callers you still win another round at the table..when your in the BB you do NOT want a lot of people in the pot acting behind you. you only want customers with this hand in LATE position.when youre in the BB with a hand, you dont want drawing hands in there.

[Guest]

Let me get this straight...you misplay AK, display some severe misconceptions about the hand in general, then misplay KQ from early position. Now, your contention is that you don't want critiques, but only to know why KK played HIS hand so badly? You've got balls man, I'll give you that. Maybe you should spend some time reading the critiques...Anyway, about the question you want answered.He flat called your 3xBB raise because he gains nothing at that point in terms of equity by establishing his hand and scaring out potential raisers. He's still in trouble to a flop with an A, and pretty much clear if one doesn't come. The only things that're gonna call a substantial raises are, of course, high pp and strong Aces. Why scare out AK or AQ when they may potentially play back? Certainly, he could isolate and double up off of QQ if it's out there, but that isn't always the play with the highest EV. KK has pretty good multi-way strength (as I'm sure you're aware of from your 10-20 experience) so why push it here? I'm sure if there was a reraise, he was getting all his chips in the middle right then. This is not a bad play...just not typical. It requires him to be able to get off of the hand later, but if he can, more power to him.On the flop, he has to believe he's ahead. He doesn't have that many chips in front of him, and you bet out. The guy behind him might call as well, so again, he gains nothing by raising the rest of his stack here. A flush draw from the trailer is getting close enough odds to call behind if he pushes (about 1.6-1 if I'm figuring correctly, higher if he feels you're going to call behind as well, getting close to 3 to 1), and you certainly are getting close to the odds to call (just over 2-1 if the trailer folds) if that is, in fact, what you're holding. He can't price out the flushes, so he gains nothing with a raise. He might as well build the pot as high as possible. He's probably going to push on any non-heart turn. Pretty standard.On the turn, he is convinced he's just locked up the hand. He knows he's going to get all his chips in the middle regardless, and was prepared to do so at any point. However, you bet into him again. Why scare you off on the river by raising? What does he possibly gain? He's either way ahead, in which case he's going to push on a checked river, or way behind, in which case he's going to go broke on the river anyway. He's got position, and can push his remaining 36 if you check to him anyway. Besides, if he's reading you for a flush draw, he wants to let you hit one on the river, since you then beat any bluff or Ahigh kicker hands, making it much easier for you to call. Again, this is pretty standard and I can't understand why you're baffled by the play. Truth be told, you got outplayed the whole way. Seems like it ticked you off, and are justifying the beat by acting flabbergasted at how weak that guy was with KK.The flop play was a bit creative, but nothing mind-blowingly unique. It certainly was not "weak" as you put it. He got you to double him up, and got a bit of value from the other guy who trailed in, so his play is certainly not "weak". If by weak you mean "not raising me 10xBB which is standard" then I suppose you're right. To specifically address your question about the frequency of plays like this, I've found this sort of non-standard play to be common as I've moved up higher. Typically, the non-standard plays tend to be on the over-aggressive side of life, but they can come in any shape or size. Fact of the matter is that people who are playing the 2/4 NL at Stars, or anywhere for that matter, are a little more innovative than the typical ABC'er. If you watch the play at Party 1000, or the really high games on UB or Prima, the play is remarkably creative. Funny thing is, a lot of people who watch these games think "Holy crap, these guys suck. If I only had the bankroll, I could CRUSH this game with solid, fundamental play." This is simply not true. Getting your opponent to make a mistake about your holdings is at the center of any good NL strategy. You underestimated the range of hands your opponent could be holding. As you move up, it's only going to get worse. Judging by the way you played these two hands (playing top two with the nut flush draw soft, and a marginal draw fast) I don't think you really have any leg to stand on when making derogatory assessments of your opponent's play. Speeding up on a marginal draw to "represent strength", and slowing down on the monster you turned with AK is some of the most transparent play you could possibly come up with. Furthermore, based on your misconception of AK being a "drawing" hand exclusively and KQ being a "great" hand out of position, I'd suggest being a little less quick to flame people who point out some things you might've missed. You said yourself that you're pretty new to NL. I'd suggest that automatically assuming you doubled this guy up because he sucks isn't the best mind set to take into a new environment.

[chindi 0]

Maybe I'm still too ingrained in my old school limit poker ways. I just don't see what stepping on a pot I should have had zero chance of losing accomplishes.

Because this isn't limit poker. In limit poker there's very little chance of pushing people off pots, but there is a very limited range of what you can lose as well, you can get to the river as cheaply (or as expensively) as you like by calling the limit bets.In no-limit, it's an entirely different animal and there's always the chance that a pots going to get jammed either from someone who has you legitimately beat or simply has the swagger and stones or simply knows that you won't make the call.It is *far* *far* better to win this hand pre-flop or on the flop, than to dink around with it and lose because the guy lingered until the river. And not to sound too critical, but you mentioned an unwillingness to push in with this hand, I guess what I wonder is, what would you have done if he'd pushed in on the turn? I understand not wanting to go down in flames at the table, and the way to defend your hand is to bet it properly (which you seem to concede at this point), but if you're only willing to call with the stone cold nuts and have an instinctive pre-assumption of the other guy having the best of it... then you might want to consider sticking to limit.