nl strategy

[Forbidden Void 0]

I understand that people will suck out with bad hands. It seems like I'm losing a lot of money on hands like that though. Does anybody have a decent betting/play strategy for NL that will minimize losses on these hands? Ex.1/2 NLI get dealt AKs in the big blind.3 limpers, I raise to $4 BB, all 3 call, including Small Blind.Flop comes 4s 9s AdSmall blind bets $2 I raise to $8One folds, Other 2 call.Turn is Kc Small blind checks, I bet $8 again. 1st player folds, Small blind calls.River comes 10cSmall blind bets $12, I flat call.He turns over QJh.So I lost. Now, I can handle losses like this, but I invested 32 dollars into this pot to get suckered out on the turn and river. Is there any strategic way to keep these losses down? I'm tired of losing decent size pots to bad players, because of this. I don't want to bet more than I was because he could very well have flopped a set or even flopped two pair (my second pair on the turn would have beat that at least).Is my play bad or is there something else I can do?

[justblaze 0]

you butchered this hand. the preflop raise is terrible. You need to bet way more or nothing at all. Raise on the flop needs to be much larger as well, and depending on the stack sizes im all in (or close to it) on the turn.

[CaneBrain 95]

I understand that people will suck out with bad hands.  It seems like I'm losing a lot of money on hands like that though.   Does anybody have a decent betting/play strategy for NL that will minimize losses on these hands?  Ex.1/2 NLI get dealt AKs in the big blind.3 limpers, I raise to $4 BB, all 3 call, including Small Blind.Flop comes 4s 9s AdSmall blind bets $2 I raise to $8One folds, Other 2 call.Turn is Kc  Small blind checks, I bet $8 again.  1st player folds, Small blind calls.River comes 10cSmall blind bets $12, I flat call.He turns over QJh.So I lost.  Now, I can handle losses like this, but I invested 32 dollars into this pot to get suckered out on the turn and river.  Is there any strategic way to keep these losses down?  I'm tired of losing decent size pots to bad players, because of this.  I don't want to bet more than I was because he could very well have flopped a set or even flopped two pair (my second pair on the turn would have beat that at least).Is my play bad or is there something else I can do?

Must raise more preflop....if the BB is 2 dollars I say raise it to 6-8 normally....but with all those limpers I might raise it even a little higher....yes you did get sucked out on but there were mistakes made too....

[Guest]

Yeah, similar to what's been said...Make it 6 or 8 preflop...bet the pot at least on the flop, and push it on the turn. Nothing much else to say.

[dna4ever 2]

I agree with the above, much higher preflop raise 4x or 5x with that many limpers. I'm coming over the top hard on that flop. You got TPTK with the nut flush draw. Definitely a suckout, but always a chance someone limped in with Ace rag too and can hit on the turn or river.

[Royal_Tour 0]

you butchered this hand. the preflop raise is terrible. You need to bet way more or nothing at all. Raise on the flop needs to be much larger as well, and depending on the stack sizes im all in (or close to it) on the turn.

Yes agreed.. but to the OP benefit,, i have seen these hands get call even with all-in moves prior to the turn.. happend to me once.I flopped top 2 pair, with a scary board, i pushed all in.. 1 caller. looking for a inside straight.. and he hit it.,sometimes it just plain sucks

[Forbidden Void 0]

Bah. I just reread my post... and I realized I was typing it in wrong... convert all of those dollar signs to X's.so everything is twice as much as it says... I was tired when I typed it in.I lost $64 on this hand. (I wondered why it didn't seem like that much)I'm used to limit, and not used to thinking in terms of dollars, so my brain wasn't working quite right.So to recap.Raised to $8 preflop. SB Bet $4 on flop, I raised to $16I bet $16 on turn after SB checksSB bets $24 on river and I call.Also to clarify this, I was up to about $450 anyway.SB had maybe $325.

[All_In 0]

you butchered this hand. the preflop raise is terrible. You need to bet way more or nothing at all. Raise on the flop needs to be much larger as well, and depending on the stack sizes im all in (or close to it) on the turn.

once and for all, is AK a drawing hand?and if so, is it better to get in a little pre-flop raise?i am just confused as to this 'drawing hand' thing. i thought that if u have one (ie KQ) u want as many people in the pot as reasonable.true or not?thanks!

[Forbidden Void 0]

I think there is some general confusion as to how powerful a starting hand AK really is.I do NOT want to get into a heads up match with someone preflop with this hand.This is not a tournament, this is a cash game. There is no pressing need for me to risk my stack on a couple of overcards.Personally, I raised 4x the BB preflop. So what if I raise to 6x the BB. or 8x to get out that person that calls with JQ? The problem you run into there is now you have invested more money on a heads up play than this hand is worth. My odds of hitting a pair on the flop are what? 50% What do I bet then, from the BB on a flop of Q96 rainbow? Sure if I hit I bet, and a smaller PP folds.Most players won't call Ax for more than 4x the BB, so I lose my chance to milk them.The point I think here is that with AKs I WANT people to stay in. I don't want bad players to suck out on me on the river.I would have thought that an 8x BB raise on the flop said I had something. This guy was down two cards... His call was worse than anything I did. He didn't reraise after any of my bets, so there's no way I can expect a steal. And I didn't raise on the river, and so saved myself from an embarrasing defeat at the hands of a flopped set.I guess I just want to know if anyone has effected a decent strategy to MINIMIZE losses on hands like this. This guy was in the hand. I guess I could have bet more after turn, but why? He wasn't raising, so the only thing I could guess from that is he was drawing for the same flush I was, or he had hit the Ace, in which case I still had him. If he wasn't looking for either of those things, he had a set, and I'm supposed to bet big on that because he might FOLD? A set? Right.Where in this could I possibly have expected to make more money by betting bigger, or expected him to be on a double gut shot?

[Dunce 0]

i am just confused as to this 'drawing hand' thing. i thought that if u have one (ie KQ) u want as many people in the pot as reasonable.

I think it's probably more accurate to say you want the best possible pot odds when playing a drawing hand.It's easiest to get those pot odds with more players in the hand.Dunce

[SapphireTiger 0]

I think there is some general confusion as to how powerful a starting hand AK really is.I do NOT want to get into a heads up match with someone preflop with this hand.This is not a tournament, this is a cash game. There is no pressing need for me to risk my stack on a couple of overcards.Personally, I raised 4x the BB preflop. So what if I raise to 6x the BB. or 8x to get out that person that calls with JQ? The problem you run into there is now you have invested more money on a heads up play than this hand is worth. My odds of hitting a pair on the flop are what? 50% What do I bet then, from the BB on a flop of Q96 rainbow? Sure if I hit I bet, and a smaller PP folds.Most players won't call Ax for more than 4x the BB, so I lose my chance to milk them.The point I think here is that with AKs I WANT people to stay in. I don't want bad players to suck out on me on the river.I would have thought that an 8x BB raise on the flop said I had something. This guy was down two cards... His call was worse than anything I did. He didn't reraise after any of my bets, so there's no way I can expect a steal. And I didn't raise on the river, and so saved myself from an embarrasing defeat at the hands of a flopped set.I guess I just want to know if anyone has effected a decent strategy to MINIMIZE losses on hands like this. This guy was in the hand. I guess I could have bet more after turn, but why? He wasn't raising, so the only thing I could guess from that is he was drawing for the same flush I was, or he had hit the Ace, in which case I still had him. If he wasn't looking for either of those things, he had a set, and I'm supposed to bet big on that because he might FOLD? A set? Right.Where in this could I possibly have expected to make more money by betting bigger, or expected him to be on a double gut shot?

whoa whoa whoa! this it totally opposite to what i understood. My understanding is that AK should be a hand you should try and isolate with. You do NOT want a lot of other people in the hand. Is this true or not?

[speedz99 145]

AK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handSome of you sound like we are discussing how to play j10s here. AK is what, the fourth best preflop? You will win much more than you lose, so what is the question?As for the hand in question, even with the raises doubled from the original post it still wasn't enough after the flop and turn. There is no way this guy stays in after the flop with a huge raise.

[All_In 0]

AK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handSome of you sound like we are discussing how to play j10s here.  AK is what, the fourth best preflop?  You will win much more than you lose, so what is the question?As for the hand in question, even with the raises doubled from the original post it still wasn't enough after the flop and turn.  There is no way this guy stays in after the flop with a huge raise.

the question is would u rather play this with 1-2 other people or heads up?

[Forbidden Void 0]

This is where the difference between tournament style play and cash play comes in.Most people have only been exposed to a large amount of NL tournament play. In that kind of environment where you BR to Blind ratio is constantly shrinking, you take more chances, and there you want to put more on the line, and take bigger chances with AK.In a cash game, AK has less value, since there is no immediate danger of the blinds going up on you. If you sit down to play 1/2, you're still playing 1/2 two or three hours later. So your bank increases at a steadier rate, and not at the exponential rate it would in a tournament.With AK, I want to isolate the table, but not get rid of the calls from people who will play with Ax. AKs is still a drawing hand. Keep in mind that at best from the start, you have A high.Face it, if it doesn't hit, you have nothing to go on to show that the one person you've now faced yourself up against didn't hit a pair, and even IF your A or K comes up on the turn or river, you're probably up against 2 Pr anyway. I have 400 bucks on the table, also. Unlike a tournament where my buy-in is all I stand to lose if I go out, here I'm up an add'l buy-in as well.I don't want to risk that all on a single hand if I can help it.Too many people are willing to place too much money into hands in a NL cash game, simply because they can.And in general, 4x the BB with 3 limpers behind you will get rid of at least one, and then you're down to a manageable playing level anyway.I'm not losing money overall. I'm just concerned that my profit might be hampered because of hands like this one. I'm just trying to figure out if there was a way I could have played this and lost less money.I'm not pushing with top pair on the flop.I'm not pushing with two pair on the turn.I'm not stupid. It's moves like that that cost people their whole roll instead of 65 dollars.Maybe I was trying to milk too much from this guy and got burned. I don't think so, but it's a possibility.

[speedz99 145]

AK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handAK is a good starting handSome of you sound like we are discussing how to play j10s here.  AK is what, the fourth best preflop?  You will win much more than you lose, so what is the question?As for the hand in question, even with the raises doubled from the original post it still wasn't enough after the flop and turn.  There is no way this guy stays in after the flop with a huge raise.

the question is would u rather play this with 1-2 other people or heads up?

I'm happy in either situation. As with all top starting hands, it would be more likely to hold up in a heads up scenario.

[guinevar 0]

I disagree with the way you say...

Face it, if it doesn't hit, you have nothing to go on to show that the one person you've now faced yourself up against didn't hit a pair, and even IF your A or K comes up on the turn or river, you're probably up against 2 Pr anyway.

Heads up especially, Ace high will win a good amount of time. To then believe that "you're probably against 2 pr anyway" when you hit TPTK is wrong. You're right about not having to risk too much with Ace King, you could have very well run into Aces, but you're wrong about betting enough when you should reasonably believe you have the best hand. Tight-weak isn't a winning combination. Anyone can push with Top Set and anyone can push with the stone cold nuts. That doesn't make you aggressive, it just means you know what beats what. To be a winning, longterm successful NLHE player, you've got to be willing to gamble, especially when you most likely have the best hand.speedz99 was right:

As for the hand in question, even with the raises doubled from the original post it still wasn't enough after the flop and turn. There is no way this guy stays in after the flop with a huge raise.

You could have made 45 or so dollars instead of losing 65. Opportunity cost tells us that you actually lost 110 on this hand.

[speedz99 145]

I'm not pushing with top pair on the flop. I'm not pushing with two pair on the turn. Nobody said to push all in. Just bet more. There is a happy medium between $16 and $400.AKs is still a drawing hand. Keep in mind that at best from the start, you have A high. I still disagree with calling it a drawing hand. I think that implies that you are usually a big dog, but can win if you get a great board. AK is usually the favorite.Face it, if it doesn't hit, you have nothing to go on to show that the one person you've now faced yourself up against didn't hit a pair, and even IF your A or K comes up on the turn or river, you're probably up against 2 Pr anyway. Why are you probably up against 2 pair? Besides, you can send out feeler bets and raises to see where you stand and possibly get them to fold. You can't assume that when you miss the flop they automatically hit it big time.

[speedz99 145]

I need to type faster, guinevar beat me to it.

[guinevar 0]

I need to type faster, guinevar beat me to it.

At least we had the same conclusions.

[Forbidden Void 0]

I have to agree with Speed, I think.Looking back I probably should have put more up on the flop after his fairly weak bet. I think maybe rather than raising to $16, I probably should have gone to $24. He may or may not have called. Even calling 16 I think was a stretch. Thanks.(AK is overrated)

[guinevar 0]

(AK is overrated)

heh, I feel like I'm bantering with my little brother. He would know that AK is a fantastic hand though.Imagine this Forbidden Void:You are heads up against me and you have Queens and I have Ace King. Are you going to play Queens against me?Now this:I am heads up against you but now I have queens and you have Ace King.Are you going to fold Ace King?In both instances (especially in the case of a suited Ace King) they are statistical coinflips. It's the same concepts that QJ is a monster heads up hand since it is near even money with 10s, KQ with Js and so on.Anyhow, have a good day.Edit: Yes, Queens are a bit of a favorite to Ace King, but it is still proper to play Ace King here since it is a statistical coinflip and some people have a tendency to overplay queens. People overplay Ace King, too (and so it is overrated to THEM because they have poor post-flop skills. There was a post earlier about Daniel mentioning 10-7 and the implication was that it became overrated to a fish on some game earlier, this is the same thing) but they will generally get away from high card than a pair of queens. It takes a much bigger man to fold the queens post-flop and a much bigger man to call with Ace King post-flop depending on which hand is BEST at the time. That's where your amazing post-flop skills should come in.

[powerpoker 0]

i used to have the same problem you have now...first off please please raise more preflop...also READ SS2 NL cash game section...reading that turned everything around for me in cash games...basically it says that yes AK is a powerful drawing hand...also its very easy to get away from it as well...rasie with it preflop...if nothing hits bet anyway...if someone calls slow down and check fold the turn if no A or K hits...basically i use the same strat as doyle in the book...if i am the preflop raiser i bet out on 90% of the flops whether i hit them or not and see where i am...and go from there...why wont you push with TpTk...and then two pair on the turn...you cant be afraid someone alaways has the nutz on you... :wink:

[Forbidden Void 0]

Heh. I never said AK was a bad hand. I meant exactly what you said, it's often overplayed.I think I was just irritated with this hand because the guy just rattled off a 'well, that's poker' after he won. It's like people think that's a good excuse for playing a hand poorly.I love AK heads up. I am skeptical to play too hard into it after the flop, though.The point though, remains, that whether I have queens or AK against you heads up, I have no clue what's in your hand.If I have AK against you and a Q hits the flop, but no A or K, and you bet, I'll probably lay down the hand.Same goes if I have QQ and an A or a K hits the flop. When you bet big, you expect big hands, with these hands I might throw out a feeler bet on the flop to see what's going on, but rarely more than that.Just because a hand has better odds heads up, doesn't always mean it's a good idea to get heads up with that hand. (It doesn't mean it's not a good idea either) And if I bet 20 preflop and 40 after the flop to match the pot... this guy still calls.What then?I'm just sick of stubborn people who don't realize they're beat, and keep playing until they're not anymore.Edit: In this situation, I don't push. This guy had well over 3/4 my stack. If he has 120 bucks, then I start thinking about it.If he calls then, I throw things and piss and moan for a while, then get over it.He left after that hand too... which led to more irritation on my part.

[GhostfaceKillah 0]

Get your money in with the best hand IMOYou made your hand and more on the turn when you had top 2pair.You should have stepped on the pot right there.

[Sick Daddy 0]

And if I bet 20 preflop and 40 after the flop to match the pot... this guy still calls.What then?I'm just sick of stubborn people who don't realize they're beat, and keep playing until they're not anymore.

Excuse me...I think this is what we all hope for, right? people who don't realize they are beat? Calling big bets with 4 outs with one card to come? Holy sheep shit, batman, what has the world come to when you want someone to fold in this situation?