I Don't Like Getting Out Of Line..

[DonkSlayer 1]

$10 rebuy on FT; close to the break. No reads as it's a relatively new table. Given my M, positions, blinds, where we were in the tourney, etc...I think each decision I made in this hand was tough. Fold PF or reraise allin to ISO seem just as legit as my flat call, even though I could fold if BB shoves and still have over 20 BB's. Flop was impossible. Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 10+1 Tournament, 50/100 Blinds (7 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.comsaw flop | saw showdownUTG (t1420)MP1 (t14889)MP2 (t4070)CO (t9608)Button (t1290)Hero (SB) (t3595)BB (t4595)Hero's M: 23.97Preflop: Hero is SB with 8, A5 folds, Button raises to t1290 (All-In), Hero calls t1240, BB calls t1190Flop: (t3870) K, 9, 10(3 players, 1 all-in)Hero?

[fitzinabox 0]

go all in?

[TrueAce13 18]

Really? this is a question? You have a dream flop, what more do you want? If you don't want to get invested in this pot, fold this hand PF...but seriously?!Phil Hellmuth-style ship.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Really? this is a question? You have a dream flop, what more do you want? If you don't want to get invested in this pot, fold this hand PF...but seriously?!Phil Hellmuth-style ship.

What does villain call with that i'm ahead of and fold what I'm behind?

[Kendren 1]

What does villain call with that i'm ahead of and fold what I'm behind?

Behind: AQ-AJ, 22-88, MAYBE AT-A9Ahead calls: Small pair, weak K?

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

I'm certainly no experienced pro, and maybe I'm setting myself up to get flamed (or maybe I misread the hand), but:Why are we semi-bluffing into a dry side pot here? I think there is some value in eliminating the button, and I don't particularly mind checking the flop, or even check-calling a bet from the BB. If you shove all in and the BB folds, you haven't really accumulated any chips. Your hand still has to be better than the Button's hand, and we have no information on that hand at all b/c he's already all-in.Just my opinion and I"d love to hear where the failure in my thinking might be.

[Polsk33AllIN 0]

although i do see cracks point here, i still think its a shove for a few reasons.The buttons range in my best guess is pretty wide here and we are ahead a big% of the time, so by eliminating the BB we gain a huge equity at this pot. The BB should give you alot of credit with a shove here so he should be folding alot. If he does call, well thats not that bad at all we are drawing to the nuts and are still geting good equity at the pot.

[trystero 0]

We're felting this hand because our equity's tremendous. Yes, if we're called by the BB we are probably behind (slightly), and we may be behind the button still, but to fold in this spot is criminal. The only question is whether or not we shove or c/c. I prefer a shove because we at least gain some FE against smaller pairs or, as Kendren said, better aces (which is fantastic, as it'll increase our # of outs in case we're behind a hand like JJ from the button). The only hands I'm really worried about is TT/99.PF depends on the villain. If button's a solid player who's capable of stealing with a low M then it's a good call.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

is everyone ok with the flatcall pre with someone to act behind?

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

We're felting this hand because our equity's tremendous. Yes, if we're called by the BB we are probably behind (slightly), and we may be behind the button still, but to fold in this spot is criminal. The only question is whether or not we shove or c/c. I prefer a shove because we at least gain some FE against smaller pairs or, as Kendren said, better aces (which is fantastic, as it'll increase our # of outs in case we're behind a hand like JJ from the button). The only hands I'm really worried about is TT/99.PF depends on the villain. If button's a solid player who's capable of stealing with a low M then it's a good call.

I'm not suggesting a fold...I do agree that the money is probably getting in here no matter what. But if the BB is holding, say, AK, he's probably not going to shove after you check, and would probably be willing to check it down with only top pair on a drawy board. Yes, we're drawing to the nuts, but I don't think you can count on an ace as a pure out in this situation.That being said, if I check and the BB shoves, I'm still calling. But I still don't hate a check in that spot.

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

is everyone ok with the flatcall pre with someone to act behind?

Since you have a pretty healthy M, I'm ok with a flatcall preflop. Why overcommit chips in this situation, if the BB wakes up with a hand. Is it safe to assume you are folding to an overshove from the BB?

[Bizzle 0]

This thread reminds me why I never post in this place anymore.

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

This thread reminds me why I never post in this place anymore.

How is this at all helpful? No one on here is claiming to have the answer, everyone is giving their opinion. I thought people came to these forums to learn more and improve their game. If you have a different opinion, or may be able to show me (or others) the failure in our thought process, then please feel free to share.

[trystero 0]

I'm not suggesting a fold...I do agree that the money is probably getting in here no matter what. But if the BB is holding, say, AK, he's probably not going to shove after you check, and would probably be willing to check it down with only top pair on a drawy board. Yes, we're drawing to the nuts, but I don't think you can count on an ace as a pure out in this situation.That being said, if I check and the BB shoves, I'm still calling. But I still don't hate a check in that spot.

I don't want the BB to shove after I check; I want him to fold his better ace so that I can add outs against the button if I need them.

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

I don't want the BB to shove after I check; I want him to fold his better ace so that I can add outs against the button if I need them.

I see your point, I just feel like for the BB to overcall preflop that it's going to be a stretch for him to have a hand he's folding on this flop. I don't think he calls pre with much less than 99, so now we're hoping he has AJ, AQ, or maybe is laying down QQ in this spot, right?Also, to amend my previous post about the flatcall preflop. I'm ok with the flatcall vs. the shove aipf, but as I re-evaluated it, it should probably be a fold pre flop. Thoughts?

[MovingIn 0]

What does villain call with that i'm ahead of and fold what I'm behind?

If you're shipping this flop, you're shipping to draw (and figuring he will call and we're behind), with the dim hope that he missed and will fold.I wouldn't have called off ~1/3 of my stack pre with A8s and 30+BB, though, even in a rebuy. You're not closing the action, and that's generally far too much to call off for a drawing hand like A8s anyway. We're probably behind most of villain's range here and would need to draw out.If we're committed to gambling here, there is no reason to even consider anything other than instashoving this flop. If you can't shove this flop, then why call off 1290 with A8s and one player yet to act behind you in the first place?In fact, if you're willing to get it in here, it may make more sense to just shove pre. You almost assuredly get heads up with the 1290 short stack, and if the BB calls behind, fine, maybe you nearly triple up. Yeah, it's a rebuy, but if you want to gamble, just get your chips in. If not, don't bother.

[SlackerInc 0]

You had no business calling preflop. Fold!As played, shove the flop.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Results:Hero shoves the flop and BB thinks it over can calls with AJ (?) no clubs. Turn offsuit 8 with a non-club rag river, button doubles through with KJ but I make chips having dirtballed BB's AJ.

[BeaverStyle 1]

This thread reminds me why I never post in this place anymore.

I understand your position, but feel free to leave out the inherent arrogance when posting in a strat forum! Yes, you're obviously better than a majority of the people who post here, no need to rub it in. These guys are trying to improve by offering their opinions as well as constructive criticism of others' opinions. By all means, post more hands here that you feel require more strategy discussion than this one.As for the hand... this is a fold pre-flop, imo. There's no need to get involved here w/ a marginal hand for so much, even though it's a BvB battle. I'm not sure if this is too nitty of me. If I were to get involved here, I definitely Iso-raise all in to discourage BB from coming along.

[DonkSlayer 1]

I understand your position, but feel free to leave out the inherent arrogance when posting in a strat forum! Yes, you're obviously better than a majority of the people who post here, no need to rub it in. These guys are trying to improve by offering their opinions as well as constructive criticism of others' opinions. By all means, post more hands here that you feel require more strategy discussion than this one.As for the hand... this is a fold pre-flop, imo. There's no need to get involved here w/ a marginal hand for so much, even though it's a BvB battle. I'm not sure if this is too nitty of me. If I were to get involved here, I definitely Iso-raise all in to discourage BB from coming along.

Your response to Bizzle is interesting and I wonder if he plays it same. Interesting because I cross-posted this on 2+2, and I'd say 90% of the responses were to insta-reship and ship flop given the action.

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Your response to Bizzle is interesting and I wonder if he plays it same. Interesting because I cross-posted this on 2+2, and I'd say 90% of the responses were to insta-reship and ship flop given the action.

this is soooooo hugely a shove preflop that you shouldn't be in this position, but since you are, shipshipship. 2+2 is way right. a fold preflop is not good. and a call preflop is soooooooo hugely bad it's not even close.this is a rebuy. if you ship and lose (to BB), you reload. you're way ahead of btn's range so you're happy to get it in against him. if you ship and win, great, now's the time (break is coming). if you call and then somehow fold, you cannot rebuy and you're in a way worse place than you were prior to the hand.

[Tehtoe 3]

Why are we discussing M and blinds and position when it's still the rebuy period? Ship it in at any point and hope to hit for a big stack, otherwise rebuy and have effectively the same stack you have now anyways?

[JubilantLankyLad 1,957]

Why are we discussing M and blinds and position when it's still the rebuy period? Ship it in at any point and hope to hit for a big stack, otherwise rebuy and have effectively the same stack you have now anyways?

stop making sense!

[CrAcKeDaCeS 0]

I understand your position, but feel free to leave out the inherent arrogance when posting in a strat forum! Yes, you're obviously better than a majority of the people who post here, no need to rub it in. These guys are trying to improve by offering their opinions as well as constructive criticism of others' opinions. By all means, post more hands here that you feel require more strategy discussion than this one.As for the hand... this is a fold pre-flop, imo. There's no need to get involved here w/ a marginal hand for so much, even though it's a BvB battle. I'm not sure if this is too nitty of me. If I were to get involved here, I definitely Iso-raise all in to discourage BB from coming along.

I agree with you up until the end, and I think this is a major part of my game that needs improving so maybe you can help me out and explain your thought process a little more. I'll give you my thought process, and tell me where I'm going wrong.So we're in agreement we should have folded p/f. After we call, and the BB calls, we see a really textured flop for this situation. Here's where my thinking and yours differ. I feel like he had to have 99 or better in that situation to make that overcall. So, we're getting instacalled by 99, TT, or KK. We're maybe pushing him off JJ, QQ. We're most likely getting called by AK. So, he's folding QQ, JJ, AQ. I'm assuming (although wrongly in this case) that he would have laid down AJ p/f. Maybe this is where I play like too much of a nit, but I don't mind checking in order to eliminate an opponent (although it is a rebuy tourney). I just have a hard time assuming we're going to be able to force the BB out of the pot considering that he overcalled in that spot. Feedback welcome and appreciated.

[TheCinciKid 0]

Results:Hero shoves the flop and BB thinks it over, drools and calls with AJ (?) no clubs. Turn offsuit 8 with a non-club rag river, button doubles through with KJ but I make chips having dirtballed BB's AJ.

FYP.BB is an idiot. I'm with everyone else I think. I just read another thread that I found interesting and I think applies here somewhat. I think this is probably an iso re-shove. As played I definitely shovel that flop. FWIW, knowing the results here, I doubt that BB would have folded his AJ to your re-shove pre-flop, but if he does, technically speaking it's a huge win for you against the shortie since you are ahead of him, but behind the BB.