Suited Slick

[jmbreslin 0]

You flip for stacks here because it's +EV.

Show me the calculation, I haven't seen it yet in this thread.

We have fold equity

There isn't a chance in hell this guy is 4-betting and then folding to a push here.

we have no read that says this guy is only doing this with AA and KK, let alone many worse hands and low pairs (which he almost certainly is given that it is 10nl)

You also don't have a read that he isn't only doing it with AA/KK. Granted I don't have a huge number of hands at this level under my belt, but the only time I've ever seen players play this aggressively preflop with lower pairs or hands like AQ/AJ is when they're playing a shortstack double-or-done strategy. These are the guys who usually buy in for $3 at 10NL and start pushing like crazy. This guy bought in for the max.

You don't fold +EV situations just because there are 'better spots' out there somewhere. That is the stupidest logic a NLHE player can have. Who cares if there are 'better situations out there?' When you get to those situations you'll play them also and profit from both in the long run.

Why is it such stupid logic? Half the time you flip for your buyin you lose your buyin. Then you have to make that money back. If I pass up on marginal spots and focus on getting my money in when I'm a bigger favorite, I increase the odds of doubling my buyin when I get my money in. Obviously it will mean I don't double up as often as you do, but I also won't lose my buyin as often as you do. Why is my approach stupid while yours deserves to be in the NLHE bible?

[RDog 0]

Yes, but at the same time you're talking about 25 and 50nl and your experiences there. As I said, those have nothing to do with this. They're nothing alike. The skill level jump from one to another imo is pretty high. You go from playing brain-dead morons to playing reasonably non-retarded players from 10nl-25nl and then that to aware players at 50nl.I'm not insulting you. I get called a nit fairly often. Do you really feel like 4-bet shoving AKs vs. folding AKs is a FP? If not, then I don't get what you're saying. That's the reason for the nit remark. I think it is very scared money who folds AKs here for 100bbs, especially if you're advocating the 'better spots' argument.But you're going on the assumption that they're the same as 25 and 50 and they aren't.And being nitty at the lower levels isn't necessarily a good thing. I'm not talking about playing 50/40, but I'm not a fan of going out and playing 9/8 either. And again, the remark about being a nit is based on wanting to fold in this spot just to be conservative. If you never flip, or never put in your money with AK preflop, then you're exploitable. What's the point of raising with it at all if you're never willing to put it in?Lol @ condesending remarks because we're disagreeing. Christ, you're acting like I personally attacked you. Did I burn a cross in your yard?Yeah, because putting something truthfully funny in my quote box is the end of the world. Sorry I disagreed with you buddy. Next time I won't, for fear of your poker forum wrath!

LOL, where do I possibly begin? My only experience at 25 and 50 NL is coaching those limits which is why from the very beginning I said I wasn't sure about the aggression levels here.Where exactly did I advocate waiting for a better spot?Haha @ me advocating 9/8. There is a difference between being a nit and being bad.Go back and look at the post I quoted when I made my comments. It was a post referring to solid play.LOL @ me being scared money and exploitable at these limits.

[TrueAce13 18]

Alright, so I'm horrible with pokerstove, but here is my first attempt to try to post with it. Please correct or say something if people disagree, I gave villain the top 3.2% of his range (I think?)Preflop: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 41.349% 36.33% 05.02% 16797519 2319003.00 { AcKc }Hand 1: 58.651% 53.64% 05.02% 24796683 2319003.00 { TT+, AKs }Flop: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 79.026% 75.93% 03.10% 15786 643.50 { AcKc }Hand 1: 20.974% 17.88% 03.10% 3717 643.50 { TT+, AKs }

[BaseJester 1]

Some other ranges for consideration.

  10,273,824  games	 0.005 secs	 2,054,764,800  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	23.123%	  22.60% 	00.52% 		   2322225 		53437.50   { AcKc }Hand 1: 	76.877%	  76.36% 	00.52% 		   7844724 		53437.50   { KK+ }---Board: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	40.246%	  13.34% 	26.91% 		   3425229 	  6911839.50   { AcKc }Hand 1: 	59.754%	  32.84% 	26.91% 		   8435652 	  6911839.50   { KK+, AKs, AKo }---  35,958,384  games	 0.031 secs	 1,159,947,870  games/secBoard: Dead:  	equity 	win 	tie 		  pots won 	pots tied	Hand 0: 	41.904%	  22.62% 	19.28% 		   8133909 	  6934104.00   { AcKc }Hand 1: 	58.096%	  38.81% 	19.28% 		  13956267 	  6934104.00   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }---

[BaseJester 1]

The rake nearly eliminates the benefit of the dead money in this pot.

8.9	To Call		20	Pot total			  45%	Break-even19	Pot -Stars Rake		  47%	Break-even18	Pot - FTP rake			49%  Break-even

Edit: I was thinking of FTP for some reason. Added Stars row.

[tskillz187 0]

FWIW, when you disagree with someone that's better than you at poker, ask why. Why do they think a different play is better? They're probably right, they are in fact the better player. If everyone spent less time defending their actions and more time listening and trying to understand they'd be so much better. If you don't care and don't want to get better don't post in a strat forum!In this case, Rdog is staking at least two people that are playing or played $10NL. He's watched them play, he's staking at least another 10 or so that are playing $25nl and $50nl and watches them each probably once a week. And looks at their stats and actually sits and plays in those games for his stakees to watch and learn from. He knows how to play $10nl, and $25nl, and $50nl. But moreover, he's just good at poker and has a good poker mind, so even if all that wasn't true, he'd still be right a much higher percentage of the time than the $10nl and $25nl grinders arguing with him.Think about you as a poker player and why you are at where you are at. Take responsuibility for the level you play at, and give respect to those thatbeat higher levels. They aren't luckier, they are better. And if they are better than you and are posting in the same thread as you, that is an opportunity for you to get better. Use it.

[Snamuh 0]

Why is it such stupid logic? Half the time you flip for your buyin you lose your buyin. Then you have to make that money back. If I pass up on marginal spots and focus on getting my money in when I'm a bigger favorite, I increase the odds of doubling my buyin when I get my money in. Obviously it will mean I don't double up as often as you do, but I also won't lose my buyin as often as you do. Why is my approach stupid while yours deserves to be in the NLHE bible?

This is really poor advice/logic. While it is a good idea to not lose money in marginal situations, this isn't the right outlook at all. You are flipping for dead money as well as to set up a more aggressive image to help get favorable situations in the future. If you sit around and only wait for situations where you are a big favorite, you won't get much action when you do have a big hand.

[David_Nicoson 1]

FWIW, when you disagree with someone that's better than you at poker, ask why. Why do they think a different play is better? They're probably right, they are in fact the better player. If everyone spent less time defending their actions and more time listening and trying to understand they'd be so much better. If you don't care and don't want to get better don't post in a strat forum!In this case, Rdog is staking at least two people that are playing or played $10NL. He's watched them play, he's staking at least another 10 or so that are playing $25nl and $50nl and watches them each probably once a week. And looks at their stats and actually sits and plays in those games for his stakees to watch and learn from. He knows how to play $10nl, and $25nl, and $50nl. But moreover, he's just good at poker and has a good poker mind, so even if all that wasn't true, he'd still be right a much higher percentage of the time than the $10nl and $25nl grinders arguing with him.Think about you as a poker player and why you are at where you are at. Take responsuibility for the level you play at, and give respect to those that beat higher levels. They aren't luckier, they are better. And if they are better than you and are posting in the same thread as you, that is an opportunity for you to get better. Use it.

I hope everybody reads every post with the intention of learning something, thinks about it critically, and makes his own assessment.I think it's a mistake to avoid challenging successful players' thinking or discourage others from doing it. Each idea has to stand on its own logical defense. Nobody's always right and we can certainly learn from the process of arguing through a concept. This isn't a blog; it's a discussion forum.Thanks folks.

[chgocubs99 0]

FWIW, when you disagree with someone that's better than you at poker, ask why. Why do they think a different play is better? They're probably right, they are in fact the better player. If everyone spent less time defending their actions and more time listening and trying to understand they'd be so much better. If you don't care and don't want to get better don't post in a strat forum!In this case, Rdog is staking at least two people that are playing or played $10NL. He's watched them play, he's staking at least another 10 or so that are playing $25nl and $50nl and watches them each probably once a week. And looks at their stats and actually sits and plays in those games for his stakees to watch and learn from. He knows how to play $10nl, and $25nl, and $50nl. But moreover, he's just good at poker and has a good poker mind, so even if all that wasn't true, he'd still be right a much higher percentage of the time than the $10nl and $25nl grinders arguing with him.Think about you as a poker player and why you are at where you are at. Take responsuibility for the level you play at, and give respect to those thatbeat higher levels. They aren't luckier, they are better. And if they are better than you and are posting in the same thread as you, that is an opportunity for you to get better. Use it.

Biggest QFT I've ever seen in my entire life

[tskillz187 0]

I hope everybody reads every post with the intention of learning something, thinks about it critically, and makes his own assessment.

This is hopeful.

I think it's a mistake to avoid challenging successful players' thinking or discourage others from doing it. Each idea has to stand on its own logical defense. Nobody's always right and we can certainly learn from the process of arguing through a concept.

Of course you shouldn't blindly follow someone's suggestions. But when someone is better at something than you, it's usually a better idea to listen more than talk. That goes for all professions/hobbies. Listen and take it in. It's not about validating your thoughts, or trying to prove something, just be open to learning.

This isn't a blog; it's a discussion forum.Thanks folks.

I don't understand what this means. Of course it's two way communication, the point is some people give better advice than others. The whole point is to try to improve, people should voice their opinin on how to play a hand (the quicker the better, it's a good habit to try and be the first one so that you are thinking on all of your own thoughts) but when someone better comes across with a different approach, instead of defending "your" play, think about their play and ask questions. Too much random defensiveness, not enough thoughtful questioning.

[RDog 0]

FWIW, when you disagree with someone that's better than you at poker, ask why. Why do they think a different play is better? They're probably right, they are in fact the better player. If everyone spent less time defending their actions and more time listening and trying to understand they'd be so much better. If you don't care and don't want to get better don't post in a strat forum!In this case, Rdog is staking at least two people that are playing or played $10NL. He's watched them play, he's staking at least another 10 or so that are playing $25nl and $50nl and watches them each probably once a week. And looks at their stats and actually sits and plays in those games for his stakees to watch and learn from. He knows how to play $10nl, and $25nl, and $50nl. But moreover, he's just good at poker and has a good poker mind, so even if all that wasn't true, he'd still be right a much higher percentage of the time than the $10nl and $25nl grinders arguing with him.Think about you as a poker player and why you are at where you are at. Take responsuibility for the level you play at, and give respect to those thatbeat higher levels. They aren't luckier, they are better. And if they are better than you and are posting in the same thread as you, that is an opportunity for you to get better. Use it.

Gonna go out on a limb and venture the guess that NoBBir has no clue that I have beaten higher limits for a very long time. Cause if he does then really WOW at some of his comments towards me. Funny thing is, I'm not even really disagreeing with shipping, people that play 10 NL would know better than I would. My main issue with him was trying to tell people they are bad for playing tighter at the lower levels (and really has nothing to do with this specific hand). Other than not calling a 4 bet pre with AK, that was pretty much my only advice, issue, etc in this whole thread. I guess that is what I get for trying to give general advice about poker instead of telling them how exactly to play AKs which is pretty trivial in itself and isn't going to be what makes you a winning or losing poker player.

[RDog 0]

I don't understand what this means. Of course it's two way communication, the point is some people give better advice than others. The whole point is to try to improve, people should voice their opinin on how to play a hand (the quicker the better, it's a good habit to try and be the first one so that you are thinking on all of your own thoughts) but when someone better comes across with a different approach, instead of defending "your" play, think about their play and ask questions.

Yeah, I had no idea what that was either but can only guess it was some sort of jab at me.

[tskillz187 0]

Yeah, I had no idea what that was either but can only guess it was some sort of jab at me.

I doubt it, but maybe. I honestly just don't know what it means. I think it comes off worse than it was supposed to? I dunno though.

[David_Nicoson 1]

Yeah, I had no idea what that was either but can only guess it was some sort of jab at me.

It's not a jab at you or anybody else. It's a jab against being lazy in the learning process. People shouldn't just passively hope knowledge flows into them.

[Acid_Knight 2]

Lots of stuff in here.I like tskillz's posts.rdog offers really good advice.To the OP: I hope that you can at least look at this hand and whether or not you feel that shoving or folding preflop is best, try and realize that it really is one of those two things. If you think you have the best hand or are flipping a lot of the time, then go ahead and shove. Take the dead money in the pot to add to your equity and hope that you can turn a profit making this play. Conversely, if you think that players at $10NL are unlikely to be 4 bet bluffing (or overvaluing AJ or whatever, it's basically the same as far as you're concerned) then go ahead and fold because his range includes AA and KK a lot.Just realize that because the decision isn't black or white between shoving and folding, splitting the difference and calling almost certainly IS a mistake. You're going to miss too many flops. You don't have the initiative. You don't know what his range is. You have so little to go on, that you should rely on the relatively strong absolute strength of your hand preflop to take the guesswork out of his range because getting it in preflop is gonna be a better decision than you're gonna be able to make on most flops anyway, since you won't hit that many of them.

[BaseJester 1]

IMHO,shoving > folding >> calling >>>> peeing on an electric fence > waiting for a better spot > licking a flagpole in freezing temperatures > getting involved in a land war in AsiaYMMV.

[mtdesmoines 3]

This hand is easy to play. Getting along is not as easy.

[cubsfan44 0]

How about some results

[NoBBiR 0]

Gonna go out on a limb and venture the guess that NoBBir has no clue that I have beaten higher limits for a very long time. Cause if he does then really WOW at some of his comments towards me.

That's a hell of a limb to climb out on.Oh, my bad dude. I didn't know you've 'beaten higher limits for a very long time.' I guess that makes your every opinion correct on any aspect of poker. Woops. I love people that are massively arrogant douchebags over internet forums because of stupid bullshit, like in this, you have more money than me. Golly jee, I wish I could be you mister. Sorry I disagreed with ya massa. A poor fool like me, what am I thinking questionin' your wisdoms?

Funny thing is, I'm not even really disagreeing with shipping, people that play 10 NL would know better than I would. My main issue with him was trying to tell people they are bad for playing tighter at the lower levels (and really has nothing to do with this specific hand). Other than not calling a 4 bet pre with AK, that was pretty much my only advice, issue, etc in this whole thread.

... Lol. I said over and over it is bad to fold this hand because of how bad 10nl players are. We have a very strong hand against a player who is probably mentally handicapped a fair percentage of the time. Apparently (according to you), we're advocating the same thing. I never said being a nit is a bad thing, but you took the negative connotation and formed it yourself because you took it as meaning, "Hey if you're not being aggressive for no reason, you suck."

I guess that is what I get for trying to give general advice about poker instead of telling them how exactly to play AKs which is pretty trivial in itself and isn't going to be what makes you a winning or losing poker player.

Yeah, sorry to trouble you in your long day of coaching 25nl. Next time I won't bother to disagree with you about anything, because clearly you're too much of an arrogant hypocrite to even think for a second you're wrong about anything, ever. Best people to debate with IMO. What a ****ing joke. This is why nobody posts in this forum anymore. You run into people that accuse you of getting into pissing contests because you disagree about a particular play and then instantly whip out their stat sheet of rolling up 50nl-100nl 'for a very long time' like it's a 12 inch shlong and drop it on the table. It's not even a forum anymore. It's a, 'I'm right, you're wrong, I have money, you don't play high enough to question me, my results are greater than yours over a higher number of hands so clearly you're not worth my time engaging in debate in any logical way. I'll just be a cynical, condescending douche now. GG' lobby.

[RDog 0]

That's a hell of a limb to climb out on.Oh, my bad dude. I didn't know you've 'beaten higher limits for a very long time.' I guess that makes your every opinion correct on any aspect of poker. Woops. I love people that are massively arrogant douchebags over internet forums because of stupid bullshit, like in this, you have more money than me. Golly jee, I wish I could be you mister. Sorry I disagreed with ya massa. A poor fool like me, what am I thinking questionin' your wisdoms?... Lol. I said over and over it is bad to fold this hand because of how bad 10nl players are. We have a very strong hand against a player who is probably mentally handicapped a fair percentage of the time. Apparently (according to you), we're advocating the same thing. I never said being a nit is a bad thing, but you took the negative connotation and formed it yourself because you took it as meaning, "Hey if you're not being aggressive for no reason, you suck." Yeah, sorry to trouble you in your long day of coaching 25nl. Next time I won't bother to disagree with you about anything, because clearly you're too much of an arrogant hypocrite to even think for a second you're wrong about anything, ever. Best people to debate with IMO. What a ****ing joke. This is why nobody posts in this forum anymore. You run into people that accuse you of getting into pissing contests because you disagree about a particular play and then instantly whip out their stat sheet of rolling up 50nl-100nl 'for a very long time' like it's a 12 inch shlong and drop it on the table. It's not even a forum anymore. It's a, 'I'm right, you're wrong, I have money, you don't play high enough to question me, my results are greater than yours over a higher number of hands so clearly you're not worth my time engaging in debate in any logical way. I'll just be a cynical, condscending douche now. GG' lobby.

LMAO, wow. First of all, point out ONE thing that I have said in this thread that I am wrong about? I have only said about 2 or 3 actual concepts other than bigger issue things. So I want to hear from you, you being the great poker player that you are, what I said that was wrong. You keep wanting to beat that horse over and over and over again, so you know what, lets see it. You want to prove how big your dick is kid, then you know what, whip it out. Cause just like all internet tough guys, you are all talk and just keep things as vague as possible. So let's hear it tough guy, spell it out for everyone to see your brilliance, what things am I so wrong on?This whole thing has nothing to do with disagreeing about how to play ****ing AK suited or how a specific hand should played, its about your attitude towards poker and players in general. Actually, its pretty much about your attitude and has very little to do with poker. I do love in this discussion that I am the arrogant douchebag though. LOL.Edit: Somehow this post was much more civil than your dumb ass deserves.

[RDog 0]

Also, whether you like it or not this game is about respect. And respect comes with putting in the hours and the grind and YES, beating whatever limits you are playing. Respect doesn't come from some punk kid that can put words together to make himself sound smart but for some reason just can't beat those limits that he is so "positive" he knows how to beat.

[BellaireDrew 2]

Edit: Somehow this post was much more civil that your dumb ass deserves.

Also, whether you like it or not this game is about respect. And respect comes with putting in the hours and the grind and YES, beating whatever limits you are playing. Respect doesn't come from some punk kid that can put words together to make himself sound smart but for some reason just can't beat those limits that he is so "positive" he knows how to beat.

QFT on both

[babylondonks 5]

Can I start the Rodney fan club?I mean I've heard that shoving is good. But why? Sure there are some retarded players, but like so many other people, you've completely overexaggerated the situation and the fact that the guy isn't a shortstack already eliminated 75% of the retards. Given I've probably played the most hands at 10nl here due to my sheer idiocy I can pretty safely say that I'd be highly surprised if this was ever less than AK/QQ and is often AA/KK. That said, for a long time I insta-shoved in this spot, and I definately don't think it's a terrible mistake. I think folding and shoving are both pretty OK with calling being the worst of the lot.I also love how NoBB just goes ahead and completely ignores a great post by tskillz.

[SlackerInc 0]

To the original question PF: shoveTo the question on the flop: shoveOMG you nits. really.

QFT

[SlackerInc 0]

You want to prove how big your dick is kid, then you know what, whip it out.

I think you missed his point: he was saying that it's you who wants to make it a "big dick" contest. Which seems to be fairly accurate from what I'm seeing. I have no doubt you're making tons of money from poker; good for you. But why do some of the best players (thinking, all the way to the very top level, of Phil Hellmuth) seem so insecure in the way they insist on talking themselves up and putting others down? ::shrug:: I'm a football fan, and I always loved how Barry Sanders would score a jaw-dropping 45-yard TD and then just flip the ball to the ref and trot over to the bench. Modesty and quiet authority is so much more becoming than bristling and blustering and overdoing the alpha male routine.